ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

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Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Sahin Ali / Σαχίν Αλί
Sex (Φύλο): Male (Άνδρας)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): After (Μετά το) 1974
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Famagusta (Αμμόχωστος)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Private Employee (Ιδιωτικός Υπάλληλος)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): No (Όχι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Nikoletta Christodoulou: Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Ali Sahin: My family comes from Karpasia. So they were all there [during those days] . We are not refugees. I have one brother.
NC: What do you know about the Cyprus problem, and especially about 1963, ’65, ’67, ’74? What things come to your mind?
AS: When I think about the 1963 events, [particularly], I cannot tell you many good things about it. Especially … we know the … massacre that happened in [a building on] Kaimakli road. Until now, we always heard the story that the Greeks came and killed a woman over there and her daughters, and [other similar stories]. So, this is one of the big stories we all know about from the 1963 events. But, if you want to talk generally about the Cyprus problem, it is something that was created by the imperialist countries. Especially those times it was Britain. The U.S. already took control over here, as well. [It involved] two ethnic groups … [that] are in Cyprus, which are Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. [The involvement of other countries] made people fight each other. That’s it. Unfortunately, it is still an unfinished story. We still have the problem. And I feel that after 1974 nationalist feelings increased a lot, especially because of the things that happened in 1974. But we want this to end.
NC: What was your family doing back then? Were your parents married?
AS: No. My mom was a student. Her family were all farmers in Karpas. They were living in a village named Aisymeo (Agios Symeon, Famagusta district). The name is already changed now. But they are still using that name. They were all farmers. I think my grandfather was a member of TMT (Turk Mukavemet Teskilati). They were fighting and he was captured by the Greeks. I don’t know the details. I don’t know who captured him, if they were Greek Cypriots or the Greeks who came from Greece. I have no idea about that. So, I can’t tell you exactly what happened: which groups went there and captured him. But if you ask our grandparents, like my grandmother, and my grandfather, they’re going to say bad things about the things that had happened, especially during the 1960s and the 1970s. So, we grew up in a condition where everybody was telling us these stories about how the Greeks were bad, and how they did bad things about the Cyprus problem, that they were trying to kill all the Turkish Cypriots, and these kinds of things. And Turkey came here and saved us. This is the official story that everybody would tell us, in the schools, on the streets, and these kinds of things. Slowly, slowly, when you grow up you realize that the reality is a little bit different. Especially the relationship between Turkey and Turkish Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots started questioning this. Even I, myself, started questioning what kind of relationship was going on. They were saying that they came to save us. But you see we realized that the situation was a little bit different. So, there was that atmosphere when we were growing up. I mean, I think this is true for Greek Cypriots as well. They are also teaching people at school that Turks are barbarians and the like. It was the same for us as well. Even that the Turkish army came here to make peace but because of the way Greek Cypriots and Greeks see the Cyprus problem, completely different to the way Turkish Cypriots do, and the Turkish government, we don’t have a chance to find a solution. And, that’s it.
NC: Can you tell us more about your grandfather who was captured?
AS: Yeah, that was in 1974. But it had all started during the time that my grandfather was a mujahid. Which is the name of the soldiers and everything, for Turkish Cypriots. Right now even the army. Mujahid is a soldier in the Turkish Cypriot army. So, sometimes we talk about the past days. How it was, what was the situation, why he decided to be a member of them, these kinds of things. And sometimes I even asked him, did you kill anyone? Or did you see any people [killed] by anybody else, and these kinds of things. Or, how were you feeling when you got captured. Because they were captured for 24 or 21 days in Yalussa which is a different village really close to my grandparents’ village. And he used to tell me, “I purposely applied to them to be a member.” Because in those times the situation or atmosphere was completely different. We heard stories about the Greek Cypriots and the Greeks who wanted to kill all the Turkish Cypriots. So, we knew we had to do something about it. So, that’s why we became members, and these kinds of things. Or right now sometimes we’re even making jokes about it. My grandfather always talks Greek, yeah? But they told him in 1968, ’67 not to talk Greek again, yeah? “You’re not gonna talk Greek because we are losing our culture,” and this kind of… “we are losing everything.” Even the religion thing, or even the Turkish thing, we’re losing everything. And sometimes I joke about [it with] him, [telling him] how come you just swear you’re not gonna talk Greek again. But one day – because I never saw my grandparents talk in Turkish to each other, because I’m talking to my grandfather like this, because [there is] a little problem about the ear. He can’t understand me. But from just about 100 meters away, my grandmother was shouting in Greek, and he understood [laughs]. So I’m just making that, how come you talk in Greek? Yeah? It was a joke actually. And he said to me – “eh, the war is over, so, the war is over.” Because the thing is, the issue completely changed. Sometimes I even asked him what he thought about the Greek Cypriots, “do you like them, do you hate them?” And he said to me, “I have no problem with anybody. In those days, we had to do those kinds of things, so we did.” But right now everything changed, we know that things changed as well.
Lucy Avraamidou: Can you tell me a story about the days he spent in the army?
AS: I can tell you the story about how he got captured. It’s not a big thing actually, because he said to me that the village he was living, it was a village, that village before that village was a Greek village, yeah? So, until that point, it was all controlled by the Greeks. So even when they told me we were going to Famagusta those times, there were checkpoints every 10 km or something like that.
NC: Greek Cypriot check points?
AS: Yeah. Checkpoints. They were checking the ID….I think, I don’t know for sure, but for awhile at the time it was all police, and then it became soldiers [the army was created], I don’t know. But it was something about the… I don’t know its original name. My parents used to say there was one checkpoint and they were checking us, what we were carrying, or where is our ID, or this kind of things. And that’s it. But how did he get captured by the Greek Cypriots? He told me the village people, our village was already a Greek village. So one day they started bombing everywhere. So we got guards everywhere in the village. But then they attacked us really strongly. We couldn’t control the points we had been guarding, these kind of things. He said to me, when we looked for the guards, everywhere, they were all gone. So then the soldiers of the Greeks, I mean the Greek Cypriots – I don’t know, as I’ve told you – came to the village and said to my grandfather, “find every man in the village.” And he said to them, “if they are hiding, tell them to come to the center of the village.” Take some things from your house because we’re going to make you sleep in the center of the thing. But then they asked about the thing, “Who is the owner of the Bakali [neighborhood grocery shop]?” It was a cooperative in those times. And my grandfather said to the soldiers, “that’s me, just opening the Bakali.” And they said to him, “let’s go and open the shop, because we want to get something, like beef, tuna, and these kinds of things.” And they got many things from the shop. And then my grandfather asked, “who is going to pay for these kinds of things? Because I am responsible for this cooperative; actually it’s not even my place. It belongs to the cooperatives, which belongs to the villages.” And the soldiers told him that the government would pay him. And then, after closing the shop he wanted to go home and get something for the night, because they were going to sleep in the centre of the village. But they didn’t let him go. And he asked them, “why aren’t you letting me go because you know me, I opened the thing, you made me open the place. That’s why I didn’t go to my house to get my things from there.” And one villager said to him there, “ela re, don’t push it too much.” Because they weren’t letting it anymore, because the ones that went to their houses stayed a little bit longer. So they got suspicious about that, what’s going on. These kinds of things. They were not letting anybody go. And, the second day, they slept and woke up again. They made everybody wait for the thing. The place where we bury the dead. That’s the point my grandfather said to me, “that’s the point when I thought they going to kill us.” Because there was one guy from the Greeks shouting to one of the Turkish Cypriots, “you killed one of my cousins.” Actually, I don’t know the exact date or the time. But, from our village, 5 people got killed by the Greeks. And the day they attacked our village, one Greek soldier got killed, as well. And there was his cousin over there, in the army as well shouting, “you killed my cousin. If you kill one of us, I’m going to kill 5 of you.” So they were taken to the place, the graveyard area, and my grandfather said that, “it was coming to a time that I was thinking that, yeah, they’re going to kill us.” Yeah, but they didn’t do anything. And the UN soldiers came to the village for a while. They counted us. So, at that point, we thought that they couldn’t kill us anymore because the UN soldiers counted us. They knew how many people we were so if somebody had gone missing, they knew who, as well. This was propaganda for the Greek army. This is one of those things, and they took them to the camp place. I think it was like -
LA: How was he treated there? What were they doing for those 20 days?
AS: They didn’t tell me the soldiers were beating him up, nothing like this, but [laughs] he was saying to me the food was really shit. [everyone laughs] It was really bad one. Actually I think it’s the structure of the thing. The Turkish Cypriot, cause I was asking him about, how was it spending your days in the camp, for 20 days, yeah. And he would say to me, there was one guy from our village, we called him Belosukro, which means ‘crazy’, they were calling him that, because he was a little bit funny. And every day he would make jokes about it, and this kind of thing. So, that’s the thing, how we spent our days in the camp. He didn’t tell me any bad things about then. That they went there and beat them, or killed them, or this kind of thing. Nothing like this happened.
NC: At which place was …he being kept? Yalussa, no?
A: Yalussa was the place where they held them. But they captured them in their village. Ai Simeon, as I told you. They brought them to the thing, to Yalussa.
NC: How about your grandmother?
A: Eh, I can tell you that my grandmother is a little more nationalistic than my grandfather. He’s a little more educated. He went to school so he knows a little about what policy is or what is wrong with nationalism and that kind of thing. But my grandmother doesn’t even know how to read and write. So, if you ask her anything about that thing, what I think about them she’ll say – “I hate them, I want them to go to hell.” But actually, I’ve got uncles who’ve got many Greek Cypriot friends. And they bring them to my grandfather’s village. And my grandfather makes them kebab, and that kind of thing. I just make jokes to my grandmother – “you see what I mean with the Greeks, you see”! And she says – “Shhh! Let them eat and go. I don’t want to talk to them.” But actually she accepts them in her home. She just makes food for them.
NC: You mean nowadays or back them?
AS: No, even now! Right now, she just says I don’t want them. I want them to be in hell. And these kinds of things. But at the same time, she supports Talat. Actually, I think she is treating  them in a way because she’s got bad feelings about them. Cause especially my mom, her brothers and sisters, felt really bad things when my grandfather was captured by the Greeks. Because they didn’t get any news from him; those kinds of things. And even my auntie, which is, she is kind of my grandmum, she has a little bit of a psychological disorder. And they claim it happened in war. Because she was a silent girl. But after the time when my grandfather was captured by the Greeks, she became more quiet. And her problem is a little increased as well. So sometimes they talk about if something had happened, or something like this had never existed before. Maybe nothing is going to happen to her. But that’s really-
NC: How old was she?
AS: What?
NC: How old was your aunt when your grandfather was…
AS:  [pause] 15. And that’s it. I can’t tell you that many stories, but you’re going to mostly hear some stories like this.
LA: In school, what do you remember?
AS: In primary school, they taught us that. Even in high school actually. Because really in my time, the books were completely full of shit. I mean the nationalism. They said the Greeks attacked our village, and we were 50 people, they were 200 people. They had many automatic guns. We only had ‘tsappa’ or ‘kouspo’ [i.e. shovels, digging tools]. We killed ten people; they killed one. [laughs] So we were laughing. You know what I mean? Even though we learning these kinds of things. We answer to the questions, cause of the teachers want it to be answered like this [laughs]. But I mean, even we were little bit kids but…
LA: Did you realize at the time that…
AS: We can understand that it’s all of exaggeration. It’s not reality. Okay, there were many bad things about the Turks and the Greeks. But it’s not like, we’re all heroes. And we killed them all like this. And we had ‘kouspo’ and they had machine guns. They killed one, we killed five. It’s not something like this but… That was the situation, and especially the times around the referendum time. Most of the high school students do politics as well. And most of them support peace. So, even when they were going to the demonstrations and that kind of thing, they weren’t affected too much by things. Actually, because of the economic situation, not Cyprus, but all families had problems. Not something like they can’t have money. But just think about you’re going to your university or something. At the end of the day, you don’t have any option about doing anything, as with your job. That’s what you studied. I mean just think that I studied business. But, I mean, maybe it’s related, but I’m doing a bookshop thing [I work at a bookshop]. You know what I mean, I’m working in the market, but go and ask a person that goes and studies something different. That they don’t even have a chance of finding work in North Cyprus, because there’s no sector over here, and there’s no production. Cause, for these kinds of reasons, families already know about that the Cyprus problem is not something that is going to be very profitable for the Turkish Cypriots. We have to solve it. We have to connect it with work and that kind of thing. And even, for the first time, one of my neighbors was cursing Denktaş. And these kinds of things. So even when we were young, we would hear these kind of stories. Denktaş is bad, this kind of thing, you know. That’s it.
NC: And, how about your… so you told us about your mother’s side, how about your father’s?
AS: I can’t tell you anything about my father because he’s from Turkey. Though, about his childhood, I can tell you anything. My mom went to Turkey in ’75 to study at university. They met over there, and in ’80, they got married over there. Then they come over here as well.
LA: Why did they come here though? 6 years after the…
AS: Yeah, when mom finished university, they decided to come over here.
NC: So they felt it was better after…so your mother convinced your father?
AS: Actually, it wasn’t like that. My father came from a really poor family. So he wasn’t even working when my mom met him. So he didn’t make any pressure to stay in Turkey or go to Cyprus. It was my mom who decided. She said to him, “I want to go back to Cyprus. I came here only to study. Now it’s already done I want to go back.” So, he didn’t postpone it too much and they came here. Actually, I can tell you some stories about my father related to Cyprus. My father was a leftist. At the time when he came here, leftist people weren’t liked by society too much because of the nationalist pressure and propaganda, and these kinds of thing, yeah. And even though he came from Turkey, because he’s leftist the nationalist people didn’t like him much.  Until now, even nationalist people in our society claim we’re all told we are brothers with the Turks in Turkey. But we say something different. We are not Turks; we are Turkish Cypriot. We want to live in a united country with the Greek Cypriots. And we want to create the identity of Cypriots. But it doesn’t need a process. It’s not going to happen like that day. You’re not going to sign something on paper; you’re not going to become Cypriot. We need time. This is the thing. Something, a rule of nature. But the cause of the propaganda of the nationalist people was that we are all Turks, we are all brothers and sisters, the guys from Turkey. And when the topic to talk about something – I mean, the ideology, left or right and this kind of thing – even the people who come from Turkey, cause they were leftist and this kind of thing, they become traitors. My father used to tell me some stories because he was a friend of the father of Denktaş, not the one that served us, the one that died in 1991. The big guy, and he was actually a leftist as well.
NC: Denktaş was?
AS: Raif.
NC: Rauf?
AS: Not Rauf. Raif is the father of Rauf Denktaş. And Serdar is the son of Denktaş junior. Not senior. He was a big son as well called Raif, not Rauf Denktash. He was a sort of social democrat. He wanted to find a solution to the Cyprus problem, and even my father was a friend of his. And [laughs] I don’t know if it is true but they used to tell me these kinds of stories. People would say, “What is ‘Karasakal’ doing over here?” You know what ‘Karasakal’ means, yeah? Like your ‘Kalamaras.’ You call the Greeks that come from Greece, ‘Kalamaras.’ We call them [Turks who come from Turkey, ‘Karasakal’], eh, it’s not a good thing actually. It’s a little bit racist.
NC: What is the word again?
A: Karasakal, which means black beard. You know what I mean. And we call them Ganjo as well. But I told you these kinds of things are all bad things. I mean you don’t have any difference if you do these things to the Turks that came from Turkey, you don’t have any difference between the nationalist people and Turkish Cypriots. But even nationalist people say the same kind of things to people who come from Turkey, because they are leftists. I mean just think about it like this. Look at the whole picture. Just imagine a person saying that we are all Turks. But they call people who come from Turkey Karasakal because they are leftists. Or actually, it’s not even about being leftist. Go and ask people who support MHP [Turkish nationalist movement party] right now. In personal conversation, they’re going to say to you, no, we don’t like this Karasakal – but why do you support MHP?  I mean there must be a wrong theory about it because MHP is a nationalist party that claims we are Turks and all of that. They will say to you, we do it, [laughs] especially for job opportunities, and that kind of thing.
NC: Did your father tell you about the situation there was in Turkey before 1974? Or maybe when your mother went in 1975?
AS: Actually, my father and my mother told me stories about her teacher. He was a little bit shocked about people who came from Cyprus and knew Turkish. And he would say to her, “Oh, how nice that you talk Turkish very well,” and she would answer him, “we talk Turkish!” Because they weren’t even aware of who people in Cyprus were. I mean, the Turkish Cypriots. People who say this kind of thing, don’t even know that Turkish Cypriots talk Turkish. [laughs] You know what I mean? But, eh…not for the Turks, but I can tell you stories about the Turkish Cypriots during my mom’s days. They went to Turkey because during the time that she went to Turkey, it was a really complex place. There was a war atmosphere over there. I mean between the left and right. Everyday people were getting killed and that kind of thing. My mom went there and she said to me, “I don’t even know what Kurds are, what is left, what is right, or what the difference is of religious groups in Turkey.” I mean because they have Alevi, and Sunnis, which is the official religion of Turkey. But Alevi is a little bit different. And she said to me, “we’re a little bit shocked when we hear something about this.”  Because the left was really strong in those days, and most people came from Turkey, came to Turkey from Cyprus, the atmosphere of Turkey became left. And people started to understand what the situation in Turkey is. Maybe it was the first time that people in Turkey were accepting that there was an invasion in Cyprus. Because Cypriots tell them stories over there. This is it.
LA: Do you have a Turkish ID or a Turkish Cypriot ID?
AS: I have both. Actually, I have 3 IDs.
LA: Okay. Do you have…?
AS: Cyprus government, TRNC, and Turkish.
NC: So you don’t feel discriminated, because I thought that people whose father is from Turkey…
AS: Ah, the one that I told you?
NC: Can’t be…
AS: No, I never felt anything like this, because my mom and my dad were divorced when I was 3 years old. So culturally, I grew up in a place with Cypriots. Because of the divorce, my mom had to work. So my grandmother used to take care of me. I grew up in the village that I told you about, until I was 5 years old. So I know most of the words Cypriots use. Mostly the ones used in Famagusta, Lefkosia. Just think of the people who grew up in Karpasia. They are usually  different to the other side of Cyprus. Just think about how we use ‘kalo’, ‘eisai kalo’, in Famagusta or Lefkosia. People don’t understand me because it is something we use in Karpasia. Most of the words we use have Greek roots. Because I told you that the issue of my grandparents is that they all talk Greek. So the words that we use all sound Greek. Like ‘kageli’, ‘kapela’, ‘ante ante’ and these kinds of things. Like, there was a thing. Big rocks in the village. We called that place ‘kremmos’ (cliff) because of the way my grandfather would say it. “I am going to the ‘kremmos.’” “Yeah, I’m going to hang out over there and see things. I’m going to see nature,” these kinds of things. So, I never felt – even in Famagusta, I used to live in Varosha, actually it was in Deryneia. You know the events that happened in 1996? – That was my neighborhood. My home was really close to the border. And actually, it is really close to the restricted area of Famagusta, the hotels, and everything. Something like 2-3 streets away. When we were children, we used to go into the border area. We would try things. It didn’t matter what it was. Even taking books, photographs, some old toys, yeah, we thought this and that kind of thing. We just checked out the photographs of the people. We would smell things, all the furniture, it could be a book. Mostly you would find a religious book. We were just checking it out, Christianity and this kind of thing [laughs]. Making jokes, something like that. And in that neighborhood, it was something like half Cypriots and half immigrants, the ones that came in the ‘70s. Go and ask them and they’ll probably say that they’re Cypriot. But when we were children, everything was actually good. Because my best friends were immigrants, as well. But sometimes we got into discussions, like all you Cypriots don’t like this, you don’t like us, you think culturally different – because it was the first time I saw some people eating when sitting.
R2: What do you mean?
A: Just think about it – they prepare the food, yeah, they don’t put it on the table. Because they have a tradition of putting a thing onto the carpet. And they put the thing, actually I have a little problem about the thing, the sitting part – we’re all teasing with me [laugh] but-
NC: So they eat like this?
A: Yeah. We drinking, even from the same we’re drinking tea and this kind of thing. And culturally it was really far away to me. I had never seen something like this. And the food was completely different. You know what ‘trahanas’ soup is, yeah? Our trahana is a Cypriot one, but theirs is completely different. Because one of my friend’s mother said to me, “Ali, trahana,”… “man,” I said, “what is this? It’s not even trahana.” They don’t even put halloumi in it, there’s nothing. They told me that it’s a different thing. It’s not even trahana. If you’re gonna say only trahana is yours, that’s it. But even the games which we were playing, were all soldiers – we were thinking if a Greek boy is gonna come, we’re gonna beat him badly. Especially during the times when we were growing up, I told you there were the events – I mean, you know the story of Solomos – Solomos getting killed.
NC: The one that tried to –
AS: Yeah, climbed up to the flag. And the other one who was beaten up by these dicks and these kinds of things, yeah. We were growing up in that kind of atmosphere. So, for us, it was like a game. We would go there, shout, throw rocks, and this kind of thing. But at the end of the day it could affect you in a way that could be natural – thank god, it didn’t happen in that way. But it could happen. Because every game we played, we would put some boys – each one of them a Turk, and each one going to be Greek. Even the pictures drew had a Greek soldier holding the Greek flag, standing like this. And we were just making the Turkish guy a hero. Standing and holding his gun.
NC: Is there anything else you feel like telling us? That you feel is important maybe that we didn’t ask you. A final thing that you want to…
A: Eh…what else can I tell you? Actually, there are many stories about many things but I don’t think that they are very important, because they are like the same thing. I mean, I told you the atmosphere that we grew up in and that kind of thing. I told you how the education system is. How they are making us grow up in a nationalist way. I told you the family situations.
NC: What do you hope for? How would you like to see the Cyprus problem being resolved? What do you wish to happen?
A: It’s not only about wishing…I don’t wish anything from anybody. I hope that people want to do something and not expect something from the guys, I mean the guys on top. I don’t want any Annan; I don’t want any Christofias; I don’t want any Talat or Eroglu. I want people on the streets to say that we are part of this country. We don’t want anybody to come here and decide for us because this is our country. If something is going to happen as a peacemaking, just think about Talat or Eroglu or Christofias or Papadopoulos, yeah? We’re going to sign an agreement, and we’re going to say – yeah, it’s a united country. Go on, live. Just think like this – if I’m going to go to Nicosia, there are still some feelings whether Greeks are going to do something to me. Or just think about a person whose name is Georgio – gonna come to Famagusta, think about what I’m gonna do…if a Turk is gonna attack him. What kind of peace is it? It’s not going to be peaceful.
LA: What do you think is gonna happen? How do you see the situation in 20 years?
AS: I think they’re going to solve the problem. I mean, not the way I told you, the way I told you they understand only on paper. I hope if they do this kind of…I hope we don’t have any problems about the thing. But, for us, I mean the Turkish Cypriots, slowly, slowly are breaking the hegemony of nationalism over here. If the Greek Cypriots do the same thing, just think about all the demonstrations over here; people are shouting against Turkey and this kind of thing. I think Greek Cypriots should do the same thing against Greece, or other things that are going to affect Greek Cypriot society. I mean, we say we want to be independent; it’s not something for all the society of Turkish Cypriots, obviously it is for me. Turkish Cypriots won’t be independent if they don’t come together with Greek Cypriots. It’s the same for Greek Cypriots. If they’re gonna do the same thing and be against Greece – I mean, not in a nationalist way – be against the policies of the state on Cyprus. I told you, I have no problem with the guys that came from Turkey but I have a problem with the Turkish government. I think if Greek Cypriots do the same thing it’s gonna make us come together.
NC: How do you see Greeks and Greek Cypriots? Do you still think they have a…strong bond since Turkey…
A: Probably not. Because of the Makarios struggle, you are more independent compared to us. Because Makarios had a problem with the junta, especially after ’67. Even the thing…you lead the coup over there. Greek Cypriots are more independent compared to Turkish Cypriots. Economically, you produce something. But we don’t. But culturally – not how you live, but mentally – you still think like Greeks. I mean, just think about the power of the nationalist people in South Cyprus. I hear about the stories of how ELAM beats up people, the immigrants. I mean, the right-wingers, and these kinds of things. So, if these organizations are growing – or, at least they have the chance to grow, it means that there is still a nationalist mentality. I mean, I remember the day I used to go to these things. Because from the Famagusta area, we would go to Larnaca to see how it was, or Ayia Napa. I remember the first years when the border opened. The Greek Cypriot government added free buses for Turkish Cypriots to take. And the bus used to take us to Paralimni first, and then we changed buses over there. And I remember every house put a flag of Greece. So how could some of the people claim that they are not related to Greece? All right then, physically…Cyprus is occupied by Turkish state, yeah? That’s why we have both flags. We even created some silly state. But how come, since Greek Cypriots aren’t occupied by the Greeks – why do they carry both flags?
NC: Because it’s not occupied by Greece officially.
AS: Actually, I see. Because they have [some kind of] power here.
NC: Turkey has.
A: Yeah. But for you, that you’re claiming you’re independent…I mean officially, you got a country that is recognized by every country in the world. Actually, it’s not only the Greek Cypriots, it’s both – but, because of the situation that we have, we got different things. But you still hold the flag of Greece. It’s not about being against Greece but just think about this – I move to London, and I take up the flag of any country. It could be Germany. What kind of mentality could do something like this? I know that there was a historical relationship from … we are saying that we’re Turkish Cypriots. We are different from the Turks and Turkey. But the roots are coming there. But in time people change. You have different identities. Just think about this – as I know…I heard that the Greek state doesn’t recognize Macedonia because they don’t accept the Macedonian people. But go and ask the Macedonians and they are going to say they are different. We are not Greek, we are Macedonian. So it is something like in the process; they have the possibility to grow up differently. That’s what happened in Cyprus. We became Turkish Cypriots because before the 1940’s, we used to separate ourselves like Christians and Muslims. Then it became the thing that we call ourselves, Greeks and Turks. But especially after ’74,  Turkish Cypriots realized we are not the same as the Turks. So we decided we are Turkish Cypriot. But the majority of the people agree with this. People could think in a different way as well – some of them could say, some could call themselves Cypriot, some could call themselves Turks, that’s the thing.
NC: Are you treated well, do you feel safe…when you are…
AS: In South Cyprus?
NC: In South Cyprus.
AS: Actually, it’s an interesting thing. I don’t feel something like that. I can’t tell you I don’t feel safe, but in the mood of being ready about everything. Because I remember when I was at university and my friends, and I, used to go to Ayia Napa a lot by car – but we would take off the license plate of the car so people wouldn’t know that it was a Turkish car.
NC: Because they would break -
A: Because they would scratch it. No, it’s not something, we know the stories. We had friends in our neighborhood with their car scratched, or even puncture the tyres of the car. It doesn’t make me a nationalist towards Greek Cypriots, because I know that nationalism is not something really sensible. But even though I think in this way, I know that I have to be ready for anything that might happen over there. It doesn’t make me hate anybody but it does make me think that something could happen. Especially since once when I went to Paphos, actually I went to Troodos, but I just took a look around Paphos and walked. Just like the flag that we have on the mountain, I saw there were some words written on the thing, which was called EOKA.
NC: EOKA?
AS: Yes, EOKA. You know what I mean, so I said to myself…what’s the difference? The nationalist people say that TMT, all the organizations and this kind of thing but the Greek Cypriots are doing the same thing. That’s why I say that Greek Cypriots should do the same thing, or give a struggle of the same thing. They should give a struggle for independence. We should accept that we have differences but we also have commonalities as Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. And we have to come together and struggle to create one identity. It’s not going to happen in one day. It’s going to take time but if we have to struggle for the identity of Cypriots.
NC: What is TMT? You said TMT?
AS: TMT is the organization, just like EOKA. You know that thing in 1955, EOKA established itself. In ’58, Turks established TMT.
NC: Alright, thank you very much.