ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

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Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Kansu Mehmet / Κανσού Μεχμέτ
Sex (Φύλο): Male (Άνδρας)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): Before (Πριν το) 1960
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Paphos (Πάφος)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Retired (Συνταξιούχος)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): No (Όχι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Nikoletta Christodoulou: So as I said before, I am interested in hearing your experiences from the important historic period of Cyprus, 1960-1974, a period known mostly for what we came to call the Cyprus problem.
Mehmet Kansu: First of all, I come from Stavrokonno village, which is in Paphos.
NC: Tell me the village again.
MK: Stavrokonno. Stavrokonno in Paphos is 17 miles from Ktima. I was born in the village but my mother sent me to my grandfather and I was with him until I was 15 years old. Then I came to Lefkosia, Nicosia. Why? Because at that time there wasn’t a gymnasium in Paphos. So, because after secondary school we didn’t have a gymnasium or lyceum I moved to my mother’s, because my mother at that time was living in Nicosia. She divorced my father when I was 4 years old. That’s why I grew up with my grandfather. My mother came to Nicosia, and I came to the gymnasium, and stayed with my mother. That time in 1953, a long time ago. And then I got a grant to Cyprus Teacher’s College.
NC: From where did you get the grant?
K: From the government. That time was the English period, as you know. Before ‘60s, there was a British administration in Cyprus. So I got a grant. I didn’t go – I was very anxious to get a job, because my mother financially was not very well. So I got this, and this teacher’s training college was in Morfou. And it was mixed, Turkish and Greek. We were together.
NC: What language did you speak?
K: English. The Teacher’s Training College was in English, but we had Turkish literature in Turkish and the Greeks had Greek literature in Greek. All the other lessons were in English. So, after that, we graduated. After graduation, I got another grant and went to Ankara to study. I think, was it – I don’t know, but somehow, I got the grant [through] examinations. Three of us were successful and so I was one of them. So I went to Ankara. I needed money to work. Anyway.
NC: So you graduated, as a teacher –
MK: I was an elementary school teacher. And I had this grant, to Ankara. Then I finished, I came, and I was a Turkish teacher, a Turkish language teacher, in secondary schools. 1960. During that period in 1960, when I came from Ankara, you know the Cyprus Republic was announced. The British were finished [gone] and Cyprus Republic was created.
NC: 1960 and Makarios was…
MK: Yes, elected. And Dr. Kucuk, the vice president.
NC: And everybody was allowed to vote, so everyone did.
MK: Yes.
NC: Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.
MK: Separately. Yes. Dr. Kucuk was the vice president and Makarios was the president. And, as you know, the policy was 70% and 30% for the Ministers. If there were ten, seven of them were Greek and three of them were Turkish. Likewise the army, or the police – everywhere.
NC: And Turkish Cypriots were voting for the –
K: Turkish vice president. Yes.
NC: It wasn’t mixed. So you were not voting for the Greek –
K: No.
NC: In other words you didn’t vote for Makarios…
K: No, no.
NC: But you voted for Kucuk.
K: For Kucuk. Dr. Kucuk, yes. And then, I won’t forget what happened during that time. My passport was – how do you say it – the date was, I had to renew it. And I went to– that football stadium… now it is closed –
NC: G.S.P.
MK: G.S.P., ah, there were the offices. I went there and gave my passport, and I looked at him. He cut my passport and gave me another one of the Cyprus Republic. I said, “why did you cut it? It was my British passport, all we had at that time.” He said, “this is no good – this is the new one.” But I lost my British citizenship. Then later I learned that they gave a period for you to choose – you could keep your British passport. But because I was waiting to be appointed and so on, I couldn’t learn this. And my British citizenship was ended.
NC: And the person there didn’t tell you?
MK: He told me after – yes! He just cut it. That was a shock that I – because maybe I could keep that passport – maybe not. I don’t know. Maybe I could keep two citizenships – Cypriot and British. Most of them liked this. Most of the people. Those who knew kept their passport and later in life, when their children wanted to study in England, it was a help to them. Anyway.  Then -
NC: The new passport – the Cyprus Republic passport –was in three languages, Greek, Turkish and English, right?
MK: Yes, of course – It was formal, as you know – everywhere, in 3 languages. So, I was appointed as a Turkish language teacher here in Nicosia in the secondary school. Then, as you know, my first book was published in ’59. My first poetry book. I was in Ankara as a student. So I was continually writing. And then we had some literature magazines, very active. Then – in ’61, I was appointed to Limassol on the 19th of May at lyceum, gymnasium.
NC: Was it for boys and girls?
MK: Yes, of course.
NC: Turkish Cypriot school?
MK: Turkish Cypriot.
NC: So there were separate schools for Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.
MK: Yes, of course. Everywhere.
NC: Were there also mixed schools or not?
MK: Mixed schools. Turkish schools, Turkish lyceums. Girls and boys together.
NC: But Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots together?
MK: No, no. It was Turkish. Like a gymnasium, like any gymnasium. Anyway, next year I was appointed to this gymnasium in Limassol because my fiancée – now she is my wife – was there. She was appointed in Limassol. I was appointed here in Nicosia. And then, from the Ministry of Education – it was the British period again – no, no, it was the Cyprus Republic. From the Ministry of Education, you know it was Greek education and Turkish education, and they told me, “we are appointing you to Limassol because you are very good, a very active teacher there. We are bringing another person to Nicosia, so you can fill his position in Limassol.” You know, maybe it’s not true. But I think to bring him to Nicosia, somebody had to go to his place in Limassol. And because my fiancée, my wife, was there – they selected me and I went there.
NC: But did you like this? Was this transfer convenient for you?
MK: Actually, I didn’t want to go. Because my literature environment was here in Nicosia. But since my fiancée was there… And when I went to Limassol – because we had to stay together, we got married. Then, we were very active. Culturally, literature, also opening classes doors to the students who were getting low marks and couldn’t study. And I was going to their houses. First you give some homework and then you notice he or she didn’t do it. Why? Another time, again. And I would go to their houses. At that time I didn’t even have a bicycle, or car. What the result was, I went to the headmaster of the school. I said “we” –I took my friends also, and I said, “we should open classes in the afternoon so these students can come and study. Because where they live, it is not convenient to study or make their homework.” So we called them, they came to stay in school for one hour or two hours, studying, doing their homework, and then go home. And the headmaster agreed. I tell you this because we were very active. And then, in the nighttime, we were – not every night, but sometimes – maybe twice a week, we went to the villages and talked with people. Turkish people, of course.  About culture, new developments. To the coffee shops. Where people go.
NC: In Limassol?
MK: Yeah, in Limassol. About education, about their children’s problems, how a family can help their children study, work, and so on.
NC: So you felt people wanted this kind of help… they needed advice…
MK: Of course, yes. They wanted people to show more interest in their children. More interest, and also more interest to their school. We were a group, you know, we wanted to make these activities. Anyway, we believe the teacher is not only in the school, but also the environment with the people outside the school, i.e. with those who have students in the school, or those who have problems maybe with their children, and so on. And then, in 1963, I bought my first car, a Volkswagen, from Helidis Garage, which is now near the Famagusta gate – you know the Famagusta gate?
NC: Yes.
K: Maybe it is there, I don’t know.
NC: Helidis.
K: Mr. Helidis. I went and I didn’t pay – installments. How do you say this, I don’t know. Monthly payments.
NC: You didn’t have to pay all the cash, but you could pay in monthly installments?
K: Yes. And I bought my first car in October, ’63. A Volkswagen, beautiful. And then – November was a funny month. Some news appeared in the papers – Turkish leaders, Kucuk, and Makarios – they couldn’t agree on some articles, and so this was in the papers. And then September, October, November –
NC: ’63.
MK: Yes. 21st of November – we heard that somebody in Nicosia… there was fighting, between Greeks and Turks, and some Turkish people died. And then, everything started. From this period.
NC: Was this event real – did somebody kill them?
MK: Yes.
NC: So that was real.
K: But, actually up to now, who are we going to blame? We don’t know. Because these Turkish people, they were living at the area, which we call ‘Tartakala,’ where Turkish people live. Also, there was a Turkish bath, hamam.
NC: Is it the same one we have now?
K: Yes, yes. The same place, same place. Also, in front of the Hamam Omerye there is a ‘tzami Omerye.’ Also, Omerye Hamam. These places. Anyway, they started. And in Limassol – they told us to be careful, not to go out, not to travel. So, it changed. The period changed. And in 1964, I was in Limassol again. And then fighting, shooting broke out in Limassol, also, some people were trapped in a house. I think 4 or 5 of them, I forgot. But I remember one of the names was Shago. This was a nickname, he was Turkish, staying and watching. Trouble and shooting started from both sides.
NC: Who were involved in the fight?
K: Turkish and Greeks. For example, from Keo, factory Keo, the Greeks have their – how do you say, there were arms shooting to the Turkish side. Also, from Turkish side shooting to the South. And these people were trapped, they were all killed in this house because they didn’t have connection to come back, so they stayed there.
NC: Were they all Turkish Cypriots in the house?
K: Yes, Turkish Cypriots. And then my wife was pregnant. Somehow, I sent her to her family because her family was living in Nicosia. And then, the fighting in Limassol stopped. There was peace. It stopped. Not only in Limassol, in the town, but also in the villages. Like Mallia, is another village. Some came with their family to the Turkish center. Some stayed there, a lot of fighting was going on. Now this, as you know, was in the beginning of May, I came to – at that time….this was very important. At that time, we were civilians, we were teachers. But they told us to…although we were not soldiers, not soldiers back then, but civilians, we had to watch, if anything happens. So everybody was something like under an order. Given by somebody who is on top. When under order, you have to watch out.
NC: And you are talking about the Turkish Cypriots now? Like orders coming from…
MK: Coming from up, and then they’d say – “oh, now all the schools are closed. No schools.” And we were something like ‘civilian defenders,’ not soldiers. Watching. And, of course, some arms distributed. I don’t know from where they came, but also some arms distributed. Very old arms, from the first world war. Very old. [laughs] Anyway, then there was peace. It was a terrible time, but everybody was acting as ‘civilian defenders.’ We could call you like this, ‘civilian defenders.’ Why? Because there was an attack and you have to defend yourself. Or your family. It started first in Nicosia. These people – the Turkish people in the Famagusta gate area. I don’t know why but they had some problem with the police. The police said stop, but they didn’t stop. Something broke out between them. Actually, up to today, nobody knows exactly what happened. But what happened – three Turkish people died there. This. And this incident deflected to all part, in Paphos, Limassol, Famagusta, everywhere.
NC: Why do you think it spread out so fast? Because people could have said “okay, it was just an event, it happened,” but it wasn’t like that.
K: I think so, afterwards, when we were thinking better, I think as I said before, Makarios and Dr. Kucuk, president and vice president, couldn’t agree on some issues.
NC: Administration issues? Political issues?
MK: Administrative and political. They couldn’t agree. And this was reflected in the papers. People started to read in the papers, “Makarios said so, Kucuk said so.” And a conflict was slowly beginning from there.
NC: Growing, this was growing.
MK: Yes, growing. And then later, when we read more about the accidents, we knew that Makarios wanted to change the law – or how do you say that, the government of the Cyprus Republic.
NC: The constitution?
MK: Constitution. He wanted to change the constitution, 13 articles. Because he was not very happy about this 70 to 30%. He was not very very happy about this.
NC: He wanted, he wanted…
MK: To finish it, to diminish it – to make something else. Because he wanted to change the 13th article. We didn’t agree – I say we, but I mean the Turkish leader, he said “No. We have to stick to this, to the first constitution. You don’t have to change it.” But, later when we read about some books about this period, Makarios already started a kind of…military operation, so that they could cease the voice of the Turkish people at some strategic points, like in Nicosia or Turkish area, already started. And in two days Afrika [Turkish Cypriot] newspaper – you know Ibrahim Aziz [a Turkish Cypriot political analyst]? He was my classmate in Lyceum, when I came to Nicosia. He comes from Dali village in Nicosia. He always lived there [in the Cyprus Republic controlled area]. After 60’s, he lived there – he didn’t come here. Only a month ago, for the first time, did he come to the Turkish sector. Anyway, today he’s writing a book, he finished a book. And the book is translated into Greek, about the events of ’56, ’58, up to now. Like Kavazoglu, Mishaoulis, they were killed, some Turkish advocates, Muzaffer Gurkan, Ayhan Hikmet, and so on. You know it – because he was a member of AKEL. He was very close to AKEL, and these people were members of AKEL. So, he finished the book, and now the book is translated into the Greek language. And today, in the Afrika newspaper, he has an article. And with the document, he reflects on the events before ‘63, Makarios gave some orders, for military or civilian groups to be ready for an attack and operation. Today it was in the paper. So, later, you know Makarios Drousiotis, another writer? He has, I think, two books on the Cyprus problem. And these facts I am telling you are in the book there. And also, after so many years, Clerides, the president, his memories. And even, I don’t know if he’d deny it, even Clerides was once for a group, for this operation group. For the military operation. Then, as you know, Samson, and many others…. But from this, the conflict started… The Turkish people also organized themselves to defend. It is like a cat – you put a cat in a room, you try to hit it, it tries to escape, in the end, he attacks. It’s like this. There is a pressure you have to resist. Anyway, but this has, as you know, created the green line. While this conflict was going on, many people died. Many Turkish people, many Greek people. Most of them were maybe just civilians. They were lost in the street. Ah! When I came from Limassol to see my wife, she was giving birth. I needed permission.
NC: What do you mean with permission?
MK: Because the trouble was going on, they wouldn’t let people go out…of Limassol.
NC: Who? The Greek Cypriots or the Turkish Cypriots?
MK: Who did we need to get a permission from?
NC: Yes.
MK: The permission was given by the Turkish authority there.
NC: You had to get permission from the Turkish authority?
MK: Yes, of course.
NC: To get out of Limassol?
MK: Because since the conflict started, there was administration everywhere. We call it civil administration, and they were everywhere.
NC: They were observing.
MK: Observing and also directing. Who is going to watch, who is going to … anyway. Those who were under the military – not military, that time there was no military. It was civil. [For example], take this pistol and go there and wait there. Look, watch. Like this.
NC: I see. It was kind of…organized – movement, well, movements, maybe – civilian.
MK: A civilian’s movement. And with two of my friends, by bus, I came to Nicosia in May. Beginning of May. It was dangerous because many people disappeared. And after my wife gave birth, I went to Limassol. But these two friends, they found a lorry, something like that. And they couldn’t take another person. So they returned to Limassol. We didn’t hear from them afterwards. They had disappeared. How? We don’t know. And I was lucky not to be in that lorry. The driver, two of them in front, couldn’t take the third person. So I was lucky, I stayed. Afterwards, I stayed. So, everywhere, in Nicosia, conflict was happening. The United Nations came. And then, they drew a line.
NC: That was in 1974 or before?
MK: Before ’74. In 1964. When the green line was drawn. And somebody…a few months ago I read somewhere, I don’t know where, that an Armenian, living in Crete. Somewhere – it was a Cypriot Armenian, but he was in the United Nations. I don’t know what his job was. But he was an expert in mapping – drawing maps expert. And he was living in Crete… the Greek island. And the United Nations called him on duty. And he came, with the United Nations, and went around on the map. They wanted to separate Turkish Cypriots from Greek Cypriots, you know, from the conflict. And I don’t know his name; I forgot. He said, “okay, we will draw a line.” Do you have a [knocks into something]. And this man said he was an expert in this business, and he said, oh, do you have a pen? One of the United Nations soldiers said, oh, I have a pen, but it is in green. Okay, give it to me. And he drew a line from the Famagusta gate to the Paphos gate. A Green line. And from then on, Nicosia was divided into two, a Turkish part and a Greek part. Still today, we have two parts. And, of course, this is what happens with some Armenians living in the Turkish sector, some Greek people living on the north side, north part of Nicosia. They moved– because they felt secure to go. Or, they didn’t feel secure. They felt, they were afraid of course. From south to north and from north Cyprus, people were moving. Because they were afraid. Of course, they’re human. And this is how the green line was established.
NC: Do you think all this was organized?
K: I think so.
NC: So you think there was a plan and for this reason everything happened so fast?
MK: Up to today, what I am thinking, up to now – nowadays, the Cyprus problem is somehow a constructed problem. Because, as far as we know, our grandfathers lived in the same villages, maybe nearby villages. They traded between themselves, going to wedding ceremonies. Turkish ceremonies; Greek friends’ ceremonies. They were going, no conflict. Maybe there were some conflicts, but no…maybe there were many more…one effect that I think was important was the independence of Greece in 1821, if I am not wrong. 1821. The independence of the Greek nation from the Ottomans. And this created a great nationalist movement. It was, and then, as we read from some books, the Megali Idea. The independence of Greece from the Ottomans in 1821 created a great nationalism – it was a movement in Europe, I think. After the French revolution. The nationalist movement spread all over. And it was maybe normal. And this, I think, reflected Cyprus, Greek people. Independence from where? Maybe the English. Because it was under English rule. So I think this nationalist movement helped with the conflict between the Turkish and the Greeks. Of course, in ’55, another important thing that happened was on the first of April. The EOKA movement by Grivas. Also this. So, what happened. One part said Enosis. And then, this part said Taksim. “You want Enosis, we want division.” Taksim means division. We will divide, we don’t want enosis. You want enosis, we want taksim. Division. That was the slogan. And in 1960 the Cyprus Republic was established – also, during that period a lot of people from the south came to Nicosia. People moved. Nationalist speeches, ideas, from both sides. For instance, you know Grivas – I think it’s in Makarios Drousiotis’ books, there are more details. You can read it from there. I speak from what I know. But from ’56, Makarios, Grivas, started EOKA – and then some operation in the Turkish villages, many Turkish people came there, and the conflict started to grow. They wanted Enosis, and this side said Taksim. Because, what would have happened if there was enosis? The Turkish people here would disappear. How would it end? Maybe under a new Greek administration. Maybe identity would be done. That’s the intellectual thing. And, for the Cyprus problem, it was wrong. This EOKA movement was wrong. It made people separate. It made people feel afraid of each other.
NC: And what do you remember in regards to this?
MK: I was a child in gymnasium at that time. Then, ’56, I went to Cyprus Teacher’s College. We were together there, Turkish and Greek students. And at that time, we didn’t have anything, any problems in the school. No, no problem. And I was a football player in the college team…the football team had 11 players. Two Turkish, and the rest…Greek students. Some playing in Anorthosis, some playing in Pezoporikos, I was playing in Kaimakli Football, first division. I was a football player…. And you know what happened one day. Some people came, Greek people. From a nearby village…what was the village? A nearby village. Anyway, they had football team in the village. They came and they asked me. I was a bit afraid because, you know, it was EOKA period. And I went, I talked with them. They tell me, “we want you to play in our team.” Can you believe it? [laughs] But I was playing in Omorfita, also in the college team.
NC: Ormofita, you said.
K: Ormofita. Yes, and I said, “but I am playing in Omorfita. I am playing in the college team. I don’t have time.” [laughs]
NC: Was there money, were you getting paid?
MK: No, they didn’t tell me anything –they just wanted me to play in their football team. I don’t know why, maybe I was a good player, I don’t know. [laughs] I said, “okay. I cannot play because I don’t have time. But, for one time, I can come and play.” “Yeah,” they said, “but we want you full time.” I said, “one match.” And the name of the club, I remember was Digenis Football club. You know, Digenis?
NC: Yes.
MK: [laughs] I went and I played a match. From the beginning to the end. All the players, Greek, only, and me, a Turk. I finished, we finished, and we were successful that day.
NC: So you won that game?
MK: We won, yes. And I came to college, and after a few days, these people came again and they gave me 5 English Pounds. Can you believe it? [laughs] And our pocket money that time was given by the college, was 3 pounds a month, pocket money. But they gave me 5 pounds – oh great! A lot of money! I remember that incident. And at that time, in the 1960’s, even before ’63, some Turkish players played in the Greek team. They played football, in football teams, in Famagusta and Larnaca. Some of these people are still living now. They played in the football team, although it was the EOKA period. These people are still alive… in Limassol. For instance, in Limassol the AEL football team had 3 Turkish players, very good players. One is still living in Kyrenia. And the other one, because he fell in love with a Greek girl and got married, he stayed there. And his name was Cameron, I think. Anyway, what I mean is that from the EOKA period, conflict started between the two communities. Maybe writings in the street, maybe slogans of enosis, slogans of taksim, helped people start this polarization. In spite of this, the London and Zurich agreements were established. The Republic of Cyprus started in 1960. Makarios, vice president, Dr. Kucuk, 70 to 30 % in all administration. It was good but I learned from some writers that Makarios wanted to change 13 articles in the constitution and we, the Turkish people, didn’t agree. Maybe he wanted to make an operation so that he could achieve his aim to change the constitution. But, afterwards, I think the Cyprus problem didn’t start from Greek people or Turkish people. It was a constructed problem, I think. For instance, maybe I am wrong, I don’t know. If enosis happened, the island would be annexed to Greece. Greece would be here. And where would Cyprus be? In front of the petrol. So Greece would have the voice on this near east problem. Because Greece would have Cyprus very close to the petrol… Arab, near east. And, as we can see, why didn’t the English move out of Cyprus? They stayed here. They are still here. Their ‘base area,’ as they call it. Military base, of course, airplanes, everything. They didn’t go. Why? Because Cyprus is important. I think Cyprus would be important for Greece, and Greece had the opportunity to say something. Because Cyprus is…in front of the petrol. Maybe for this reason, the Cyprus problem was created. By whom? Foreign countries…still they are there, behind and organizing everything. So the Cyprus problem, from its roots, is a created problem. And it is a pity that Turkish and Greek people, most of them, couldn’t understand this. And, even today, chauvinistic movements are still going on. On your side and on our side. On both sides, there are chauvinistic movements. For this, I think the best source is Niyazi Kizilyurek’s books. You know him?
NC: Yes.
MK: He has written many books about the Cyprus conflict, and…he is an intellectual. He did a lot of research on Cyprus. He can speak and write in the Greek language very well. I agree with what he says. He doesn’t say, “oh, the Turkish people are right.” Or, the Greek people are right.” He puts everything in front of him and he tries to be opti…, not optimistic, very objective. He tries to be very objective, and he is objective, I think. In Kizilyurek’s books you can find more details about the Cyprus problem, the roots of it. So, what happened – these outside forces divided Cyprus. They said to you, “he is the other.” And to us, they said – “they are the others.” So what happens if we are the others? We don’t respect and we don’t agree with anything, because he is the other. And still today, there is conflict on the north part, and chauvinistic movements are going on. On the other side, too. You know…this…the black shirts and so on.
NC: What about 1974, can you go back to that time?
MK: Yes.
NC: When did you live in Ankara, as you mentioned earlier?
K: From 1958 to the ‘60s.
NC: Can you go back to the time your wife delivered the baby?
MK: Then, as I told you, I got permission to come and see my wife for a few days, return, and you know what happened afterwards. So I stayed here. All the people, young, middle age, not very old, they were under military…slowly, Turkish military, the Turkish resistance had started getting organized. The first were civilians. Then, in ’65, towards the end of ’65, they gave us uniforms. So a military organization had started because conflict was going on. If you want to live and if you want to keep your independence, you have to defend yourself, not to attack. And this is in the Turkish book, called “Direnish.” Direnish means ‘defend.’ Defending, not to attack, because there was no such army or weapons, but just to defend. Then I found myself in the military because they gave us uniforms. So from ’63 to ’69, shall we say, I was in the military service. I was in charge of a group.
NC: For 6 years you were, not just a soldier…
MK: Yes, everybody, not only me. We had to. What were we getting, for example. Our salary was  70 pounds a month. They gave us half of it. So then everybody of my age, middle-aged people, we were all collected under military service.
NC: So you were also getting paid? It was a job.
MK: Because I was a teacher I was getting paid by the administration. So I was paid to keep my family going.
NC: But didn’t you say you wanted to be a teacher? Or you had to?
K: No. Everybody was under military. All of the schools were closed. Then in the middle, or at the end of ’65, some schools opened. Because there was the green line after. So they thought it was safer, so the teachers went back to work. But they didn’t let me go. Only at the end of ’69 did they let me go to my job. But how it happened? I don’t know. It was by chance. I got another grant to university. Because the first time in Ankara, it was an institute and not a university; it was a college, something like that. I got a grant for one year and I went to Hacettepe University in Ankara to complete my studies, to be a university graduate. They said, “ah, you have so many credits here, so many credits from Teacher’s Training College,” and he said, “if you come to university and take so many credits, if you get so many credits, you will be at the level of university, a graduate of university.” And at that time I had two children, and I asked my wife. I wanted to go after so many years in military service. Military service is different; you are under orders. And I was dealing mostly with personnel stuff you know, like, how many people in the service, you know. I am very happy I didn’t have any conflict using any weapon. I was lucky anyway. Most of the people were. But one night I remember, when I was in the service, do you know, Dikomo village. Dikomo village is connected to Nicosia by asphalt road. But in the middle, our resistance soldiers – maybe we can call them Turkish soldiers – were there. They occupied a hill. But this was a family. And they didn’t know this but in the middle, Turkish people were waiting around there. And they came. And they stopped them. A man, his wife, and two children, I remember.
NC: Turkish?
K: Greek from Dikomo. Greek people from Dikomo village who wanted to go to Lefkosia but they lost the way. And I was on duty. I was in-charge officer that night. And someone telephoned me and said – “ah! We caught some Greek people, what are we going to do?” I said – “Wait!” I went where Near East University now is. On the hills. I saw them, ah, they were afraid, of course. Because I know some Greeks, I talked to them in Greek. I said, “don’t worry.” “But we didn’t know this road comes here, we should go from the other road,” uh - what do you say, Kithrea?
NC: Kithrea.
K: They should have gone from Kithrea but they lost their way. I said okay, tamam, you lost your way. And I telephoned the police, and they came, took them to the police station in the center of Nicosia, and they called the United Nations. The United Nations took these people, you see. And this is very important. The soldiers there were also afraid, because what were we going to do, these people came, oh! Anyway we solved that problem. At the end of ’69, I was telling you I wanted to go to my work. No, not now. When? I was in the service. And then, at the end of ’69, I got a grant, as I told you, to attend university, I finished and came back. At the end of ’70, a year later, I studied very hard and got the credits. But for me it was very difficult, 7 years under military service. You disappear, you forget your work. It is a different life. You are under orders or maybe you can give orders – “come here, go there, take this place” – many things. It’s different. So I wanted to go, and in the end, my wife said, “okay, you can go. I can manage to look after two small children.” And also because her mother was here, maybe after a year, they called me in the Education Ministry, our education ministry. At that time was it the Education Ministry? Something like this. Education Ministry. It has another name. A director. Someone told me we want you, someone is retiring. I want you to replace him.
NC: Where?
K: In the education ministry, to be inspector.
NC: So you didn’t teach again? In the classroom?
K: Yeah….no, I didn’t have time to return to the classroom. Maybe as an inspector or advisor. At that time it was inspector. So I was very…I couldn’t believe it. Because I was 32-33 years old at the time. I said, “if you want to employ me as inspector, I cannot say no. If you want, I am ready to work.” So they appointed me. I was 33 years old. And then for the first time I went to the office, and all the inspectors were sitting there wondering who this young man who came as an inspector was? And they couldn’t accept me. They wouldn’t accept me very easily. But, later, when we started going to the schools, and inspecting the schools, we became friends. And, then it was ’84. I worked at the Education Ministry, and I was also in charge of adult education, with folklore, dance, folkdances, and so on. I was in charge of this department. And for the first time, we did research. All the old dances. And we noticed at the time [someone sneezes], oh, cokaysa, We say cokyasa.
NC: What is the word?
K: Cokyasa. Long live [laughs] I noticed some of the folk dances played at that time were the same as the Greeks. For example, pekris.
NC: Pekris.
K: In Turkish, Pekri. The man who drinks and plays. And kasapis, conyali, for instance, conyali, azize. Same play, same music.
NC: Yeah.
K: And we started, we made a program in the exhibition in Pergamos area. Where the British were, they invited us. And we didn’t know that the Greek folk dances were there. We just went and we saw them. And while our folk dances were performing, a friend, a Greek friend said to me [whispers] “but this dance, is ours.” And I said to him, “but how? What is the name of this dance? Pekris. Azize?” Then, they changed the names. I said, “see? It’s Cypriot. It’s ours altogether.” You see, you play this, dance this, and they danced this. And maybe he didn’t agree with me, but what I learned, these folk dances were practiced in the Turkish and Greek villages. Sometimes together. And we did research. These folk dances are still great. For instance, during the, after the harvest is finished, do you know, I don’t know in Greek.
NC: Trigos. Drepani.
K: Ah, yes. For instance, my mother’s brother had a big one [drepani]. And he was very strong, entering the field, two hours, and finished. And he was also playing his instrument. After there was a ceremony, you know. After the harvest finished, people came and had a nice evening. Maybe some sporting activities, wrestling, and playing with this instrument. And where did he learn it? Maybe in some of the Greek villages. And it’s still played today. And what I saw in Cypriot culture, Turkish and Greek, was that they have things in common. How did this happen? Well, in 1571, when the Ottomans came to Cyprus, there were no Turkish people here.
NC: In 1571?
ΜK: Yes. 1571. Some people from Anatolia were brought here. Some people from the Balkans, you know Albania... because it was the Ottoman Empire at that time. And Albania was under Greece. Albania, Macedonia, all these parts, Serbia. And many people from Albania were brought to Cyprus. From Anatolia, maybe those people in the army who rebelled against the authority. And these people came. Their culture was different but they came here and they found people. They lived here; they worked here. And they slowly started to communicate when they came here. Turkish culture passed by here, some Greek culture passed by here. Not only this. Before. A few months ago there was research in news that the blood, how do you say that, blood…type… The blood type of Turkish people and Greek people is the same. Because for so many years, for 400 years, we lived together. Maybe there were marriages, of course. Not very many but there were some. I remember one of the archives during the Ottoman period, a man, Turkish villager, went to the administrator, at that time we called kadu, like mayor or administrator. During the Ottoman period—I read this from the archive, just to tell you during the Ottoman period, more than now—there were mixed marriages. And one of the examples to give, one of the villagers with a woman behind him, he went to the mayor, called kadu. Kadu means the ruler of this area. He was like a governor. He was in line and then he went inside to the kadu. The kadu asked, “what is your problem?” Also, the woman behind him was in there. Because at that time women stayed…behind. It was a custom, anyway. “What is your problem?” “Ah, Mr. governor, I want to marry this woman. Maria, the daughter of Kyriakos.” The name is not real. I am just remembering. “I want to marry Maria, the daughter of Kyriakos, if you give your permission.” And the governor turned to the woman and said, “you, the daughter of Kyriakos, Maria, do you want to marry Hussein, the son of Ahmed?” And she said, “yes.” “Okay, you can get married.” And they got married. I’m telling you this, because it happened a lot of times. So maybe this research shows the same blood type, Turkish and Greek. But also, before the Venetians’ rule. The Venetians stayed here for 300 years. The Venetians served so many years. There’s also Italian blood. Or French blood came to Cyprus. As you know more than me in the Greek language, you know a lot of Italian words. Still, it is there. Also in Turkish language. So, for example, in my village, Stavrokonno once I went to my village, I was staying with my father’s sister. Her husband said Trapezi onar. It means prepare the trapez. What is trapez? You know in the Stavrokonno village, the word trapez, is table. Table in Italian, trapez. Piron, what is piron from the Lusignians? Forks, we eat with forks. Yes, also there is another place here, they make borek. It’s so good. Piron is the name, piron. Anyway, what I mean is that during the, before the Ottomans, there were the Venetians, Lusignans, and many other cultures came to Cyprus, stayed here, but the Venetians were in Cyprus in the beginning. The Romans, Byzantium, they stayed here and maybe some of them left. But what remained from them is their culture. All people, Cypriot people, Greek or Turkish, share this culture coming from civilizations. It is under the ground, over the ground, Salamis and so on. Kition, Amathous, all these places. So when the Turks first came in 1571, they came from another culture, but started relations with the inhabitants, and slowly they became Cypriots. This is what I believe. And the Cyprus problem I think is a created problem, and I am very sorry that it still is nowadays. In some parts of both communities they still don’t realize this. We don’t need others to come say, “ah, make peace, make peace.” Why should we come together and talk, understand each other, respect each other’s culture and bring peace to Cyprus? I have been working for 5 years in conflict resolution. Bicommunal work. For 5 years. We talk a lot about these matters. [I had a partner whose family, if you go years back, was from Egypt. Yes, this is true for many people]. Maybe if you go back, my uncle was a school director, a secondary school director. He died many years ago. He told me that our family came from Anatolia. He made a list and so on. But he told me, maybe – maybe, they first came from Albania and then to Anatolia. Because at that time people were moving from Serbia to Anatolia, Anatolia to … all mixed. So maybe we have something Albanian. Maybe. And I talked like this when I went to Macedonia. I was invited to Macedonia 10 times for a translator’s symposium. I showed some Albanian poets a map of Cyprus. And there is some place that means Arnaout. Arnaout means Albanian. The Ottomans took the Albanians from Albania, put them in ships and brought them there. They told them, “go – choose your land, stay and produce.” You see? So, in Limassol, we have a sector called Albania. We have some people whose surnames or nicknames are Albanian. So, what I am trying to say is that we have a different culture. Most civilizations were brought here and we still have them. What we are today and what we speak is somehow a part of them. It’s still going on. But we have the Greeks and their culture. Instead of sharing this, we are trying even more to divide Cyprus. To make people an enemy to each other. So, I think this is a created problem. It is causing a lot of suffering. It doesn’t stop. My sensibility tells me that we should know this and put this in the educational system. We should translate books from Greek to Turkish, and Turkish to Greek so people can read – ah, you can read social history from a poem. Even from a poem. So we should read more of each other, know more about each other. And we should have common aims about Cyprus. I remember in the book, I will say this and I will finish, – Philip Newman, the name is Philip Newman, history of Cyprus. It’s still but, very old book. When we were at college and also in gymnasium, because I was in the college part of gymnasium. And all of our lessons were in English, and it was compulsory that we read this book by Philip Newman. At the end of this book, he says, “if in a country, people don’t have common aims, a common history, and something to be proud of, they will fight.” “If they have things in common, and they share them, then in this country, peace can come very easily.” We can establish peace. So I think we should stop these chauvinistic movements. Kizilyurek’s books says this better than me because he is an intellectual. I am a poet. I am a writer. I write what I feel. But in my poetry, the stories are deep there. It is this. Maybe in some poems I don’t write directly, but it recalls stories. Someone who reads very carefully. Because my style is – I don’t write directly. I don’t put my finger to the eyes of the reader. You read it and try to recall what this poem is about, what this short story is about. For instance, in one of my short stories, I wrote it 3 years ago, I think, in a crowded avenue; I describe an avenue. And then a crocodile on the pavement moves. And then my mother… you know the crocodile, is a wild animal. And this maybe recalls something else about the Cyprus problem. And my mother comes. A mother is another symbol, metaphor… mother takes care. If you are hungry, she feeds you, she looks after you. She is a peaceful woman. And this crocodile moves on the pavement, a lot of people come and go, and my mother goes near the crocodile and sits. She goes and sits next to the crocodile. But it doesn’t know, it doesn’t write what they talk about – between them. But maybe the reader can imagine. What is a crocodile, a woman, a mother – what is a woman? And these two come together and they talk between them. What do they talk about? Maybe, peace in Cyprus. [laughs]
NC: That’s good. But you don’t think that it’s wrong for you to say “I am Turkish Cypriot and you are Greek Cypriot,” right? Do we have to make such a distinction?
MK: When I was in Ankara…they would ask me, “where are you from?” I would say, “I am from Cyprus.” We say “Cypriot.” But if someone asked me, “what, Cyprus? Turkish Cyprus?” Turkish Cypriot?
NC: So it’s something good to keep?
MK: Of course. It’s our identity. Turkish Cypriot, Greek Cypriot, Armenian Cypriot. It’s our identity. It’s our cultural identity.
NC:  Tell me, so what do you know about 1974. Were you here, were you in Cyprus?
K: Yes, I was in Cyprus.
NC: So what was happening? You were living in Limassol?
K: Yes, what we know… after that, after my wife gave birth, I was always there. Then she came, to give birth here, and she stayed here in Nicosia. But what happened on 15th of July. 15th of July is very important. And another very important thing is the Cyprus conflict – it didn’t start in ’74. This is in the book of Cleridis; it is also in Niyazi Kizilyurek’s and also in Makarios Drousiotis’. I think you should look at this. Anyway, as you know, the Cyprus problem, always after ’55, there was always something trembling there. What is this? The conflict. The conflict…the hidden conflict between them. Maybe if you also go back to the independence of Greece. The nationalist movement. The megali idea – you know this, megali idea. I think it was there, but people respected each other and so this gradually went up. In 1931 Plebici Referendum. They wanted to make a referendum at that time. That means that… what does referendum mean? Do you want enosis? Yes, and finish. We didn’t agree at that time. You see the problem goes back, back to that time. Slowly, slowly, the fight broke out. In ’63, there was bloodshed. On both sides. Many innocent people died. And then the constitution. Changing the constitution. Changing the green line. In ’74, there was Samson. But also, this movement, Samson’s movement,…taking Makarios from the presidency with the help of the junta in Greece. I think this also a created problem, I think so. Why? Because the Turkish navy came from Turkey to Cyprus. Why didn’t the 6th fleet stop Turkey? I think there was another problem. Instead of coming Greece… Cyprus annexed to Greece and Greece coming to Cyprus in front of the petrol, maybe the Americans they didn’t want this. I don’t know. I think it is a created problem.
NC: They didn’t want to stop, you mean, Turkey? So they wanted Turkey to come.
K: Yes. The Cyprus conflict, Cyprus divided, it’s more easy to rule that way. You know the English system ‘Divide and rule.’ Maybe this is it. They persuaded the Turkish military after Samson’s 15th of July that was just about to proclaim enosis. And then the Turkish army. The Turkish president at that time invited Greece – “come, let’s go to Cyprus and settle this problem. Let the English come. Let’s all be guarantors. Come to Cyprus, restore the constitution, restore order, and then we come back.” But they didn’t come. They didn’t want to come, I don’t know why. And then, as you know, the Turkish military came here. And now this. Many people, innocent people suffered – it’s war. Everyone dies. Many Turkish people died, many Turkish villages were trapped in the south. And why should these people die? The war brings all its dirtiness, all its rubbish together. And it shouldn’t happen. Maybe all three of them could come together.
NC: So, at that point you were in Nicosia?
K: Yes, of course.
NC: Did you feel happy that Turkey came? At that point, Turkish Cypriots were happy for the involvement of Turkey?
K: Of course. Like this. When 15th of July happened, and Makarios fled, Samson…and then because the Turkish people, they didn’t agree with enosis. Because the mentality was that if there was enosis, the Turkish Cypriot identity would disappear. And they gave examples, like in Crete, and Rhodes, and many islands there. Like the Turkish population in Greece. Maybe they were afraid of…and they were also against Samson. Because they knew with the junta, that he would proclaim annex to Cyprus, to Greece. And he would be more popular, maybe his statues would be … and so, in this position, the Turkish Cypriots, to tell you the truth, they were happy that the Turkish army came here. The feeling was that they came to save us. Why couldn’t the Greek community save us or the police? No. They couldn’t save us. We couldn’t live as close friends – not friends, shall we say, to accept each other. And this made so many people at the time happy to see the army. But that changed into…. It went to different [direction]… Now, what happened? The people in the south moved to the north with the agreement, of course, I think it was Clerides at that point. Some people in the north left all their belongings. They were afraid of living under Turkish military and they fled away. Because they were afraid, they are human beings. We are all human beings. Why these people in the south came to north and people went to the south?…this is the bad side of the war. It shouldn’t happen. How could things be organized so people could stay in their houses? I don’t know. But this war brought this sad problem together. And today, they are trying to find a solution. But after more than 30 years. For instance, my son didn’t ever speak to a Greek friend. He didn’t meet one. The same with my younger son. He doesn’t have a Greek friend, he doesn’t know Greek. They don’t know about Greek Cypriots, nothing. So how are these people going to come together? We should… – Some conflict resolution activities are happening, bicommunal activities are good. But we also have to change educational system. The educational system is very important. I remember one thing in ’65, I think in ’65. At that time we didn’t have TV. We only had RIK. We were watching RIK.
NC: RIK, yes. But was there also Bayrak?
MK: Not Bayrak. At that time, there wasn’t Bayrak yet. Oh yes, maybe. The radio. Not TV. And I was watching a competition. I remember the name – Onisilos, one group, Evagoras another group. And sometimes, I watched TV when I had enough time. And somebody directing, I think it was the minister of education, I don’t know at that time. Evagoras, I remember, was given credits ‘Deka monades.’ I didn’t see this competition but somebody told me, when the group was asked, “who killed Jesus?” One of the students said, “who killed Turks?” He said ‘Deka monades.’ I didn’t see this program, but those who saw it, spread it. That’s why I said we should change the educational system. Who are the Turkish people? Who are the Greek people? How can they live aside culturally? How can they interact? How do they work together? What do they share? We should bring some peaceful material to the books we change. Also to the … ah, in this newspaper I read that Chrysostomos the archbishop said, “I am the leader of Greek Cypriots, I am the leader.” And I don’t know which paper said – “No. We don’t accept your leadership. Leadership is political”…Christo…
NC: Christofias.
MK: Christofias is the political leader and so you are the leader of the church. Not the leader of the Cyprus government. And he gave an example. Look at the Turks, their religious leader is not the leader of the community. He is the leader of the tzami (mosque), religion. This is like the religious and the political mixed together. But today we don’t. And if the religious Hoja (teacher in Turkish) says, “I am the leader” – we will have to fight. But we see that now in some villages, in some religious courses going on. Unnecessary tzamis are being built. We don’t need new buildings; we have enough tzami. Why build more? Slowly this religious influence is building more. This is something to think about. At the end, I say, we shouldn’t agree with the created problem. Or those who created the problem.
NC: How do you feel for … Turkish … being in Cyprus, I mean, is this something you like…
MK: Not to…to my mind…now, I want the Turkish army to be out. But, first of all, let’s have a solution on both sides. That Greeks and Turkish can agree on a solution. Not only the Turkish army, also the Greek army, also the national army, also the Turkish national army. Police…maybe we can have a police force…enough. That’s enough for us. But no military bases…no military, all the military should go. Not only the Turkish. Any military. Out. Maybe also the English, out.
NC: And one last question, you were in Turkey studying, both times. Did you hear anything about Cyprus when you were in Turkey? Was anything being said about Cyprus around the 1970’s, when you were there again? Did you hear anything, that the Turkish were going to go to Cyprus, and maybe you thought “it’s better for me to stay in Turkey instead of coming back to Cyprus”?
MK: No, I didn’t. We would get some news from Cyprus, and I didn’t know… That period they were trying to find a solution in London and Zurich. The leaders were going there. It was the period …’58, ‘60s, so we were a bit easier there. But that period, also in Turkish politics, was very active. For example, during the 1960’s was the end of the democratic party when Adnan Menderes made a revolution. The 27th of May, 1960 revolution. And we were in Ankara at the time, and we were in the revolution.
NC: 1960 In Ankara…
MK: 1960. Yes. We were students there, and we took part in the demonstrations. All the students. Made by the military. It was a coup by military and all this democratic party, they were out. And some death penalties. This was actually wrong. And we had this in Turkey. And then in ‘60s, I was here. But I didn’t think, to stay in Turkey, never, no. Because I wanted to come, start work. I was from a very poor family. Maybe I told you that for the first time I saw my father when I was 30 years old. I was staying with my grandfather, as my parents had separated. And I was 15 years old when I came to Nicosia to gymnasium. I saw my mother. And I didn’t know where she was living. I came to Nicosia to go to my mother. I knew that my mother is somewhere in Nicosia, but I didn’t know where – by asking, so and so and so… in Ormorfita, Kaimakli area, maybe this woman – that woman, could be your mother. Let’s go and see. And we went to the old house, and the door opened. And I stood, and a woman came and she looked at me and I looked at her. Maybe because she was a mother, mothers have different feelings, maybe she understood that I was her son, you see? So I wanted to return to Cyprus to be here, I didn’t think not to return. But some friends, stayed in Turkey and later they came to Cyprus. But in my mind it was Cyprus. And even afterwards. In ’63, ’74, even in ’56 when I graduated from the gymnasium, matriculation they call it that time. Anyway, because I needed money and couldn’t still ask for money from my mother, because she was very poor, I was trying to get a job. And I saw in the Cyprus…the English paper…Cyprus…
NC: Mail?
MK: No, no, no no. Anyway, I saw that they wanted an interpreter to the English army, and that army was in Famagusta. It was the [unclear] regiment. I wrote a letter and they called me. They were two Greek and one Turkish persons. They gave me a Greek paper – to read a small piece and say what it was. I read it, in English and then Turkish, to Greek and so on. In the end, they said “ok, go and we will call you.” And they called and they said “good work.” “Oh, what shall I do?” I thought. “I need the money,” so I went as an interpreter. And I worked only for one month because I went to the Cyprus teacher’s training college. But the officer there, Mr. Moore, had graduated from Oxford. He had two stars here [showing on him]. I was in his office. He said to me, “Kansu, come to the English army and work in the English army.” And he said, “I will direct you and you can have an occupation. And after the army, you can continue. And if you like, you can stay in England.” I was about to accept it but something inside me told me not to. And I didn’t go. You see? Cypriot. I wanted to stay here. [laughs]
NC: So what do you think now of the situation? What would you like to happen in Cyprus? With all the refugees and the people who are displaced and this entire situation. What do you envision happening?
MK: Now, for instance, the first thing is property….nobody can take property from the other unless he’s okay. He can sell it but you cannot take it with force. We can see this, like with the Ottoman period in Egypt. We have many examples from there. During that time some people had land in Egypt. And after Egypt gained independence, these people who owned land or houses, asked for them and many years later they got them. Now in Cyprus, I think property is very important. It’s a basis of the Cyprus problem. If you have property in Lapithos, it is yours. It must be yours. But somebody is there. What can we do about this? Also maybe it’s not as big a problem, but in the South, some Turkish property, somebody is there. What can we do? This is in agreement – we have to find a solution. Maybe a solution should be if the owner of the house comes and wants to live in her house, he should come. Stay here. But maybe the administration will be different. Turkish administration. No problem. In the South, maybe it will he same. Those who want to go to their villages can go or stay. We should give this freedom to people who left their property. And this should be agreed by the communities. So that if, for instance, your father wants to come to Lapithos and stay, he should feel secure – and not afraid. He should feel secure. His wife should be guaranteed security – by whom? By the police, by government, and this should be given. And property. And what will happen to the other men who came, who are there, maybe they can give him another house. Maybe they can give him another house. Or maybe the owner would like to sell his house to him, maybe. You don’t know. But it is the heart of the Cyprus problem – property. It’s very important. I think with a solution, we should find a solution. Thank god I don’t have property. [laughs] Yes, I … in my mind, at the moment the best solution would be a federation. Which AKEL also insists on, a federation. There are hundreds of solutions for federation. I remember an American came to one of our conflict resolution meetings. And he gave a conference about federalism. And I learned from him that a federation can be many kinds of federations. The best federation you can find, the best Greek and Turkish federation. Maybe like Switzerland. Like in the USA, many states together. Maybe something where people will be happy, will feel secure, can keep their identity and culture, and share. All Cypriots can share. And maybe we can establish something in common. That Greeks and Turks can believe the same. And maybe we can create an enemy from outside and we can unite. [laughs] I am joking.
NC: Who knows? Is there anyone else with any interesting story I could talk with?
MK: I will think about it.
NC: Thank you.