ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Refikoglu Merter / Ρεφίκογλου Μερτέρ
Sex (Φύλο): Male (Άνδρας)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): Before (Πριν το) 1960
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Nicosia (Λευκωσία)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Private Business Owner (Ιδιοκτήτης Επιχείρησης)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): No (Όχι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Nikoletta Christodoulou: What do you know about the events, because of which we claim that we have the Cyprus problem? I know you were not born back then, but maybe you can tell us things that you heard or that you read? Maybe from your family, as well? What do you know about those events, from 1963 until 1974? What comes to your mind when you hear the Cyprus problem?
Merter Refikoglu: So, when you ask me about Cyprus problem. When I was young and I was studying at primary and secondary school we were always taught that the problem came from the Greek side. The south part was always bad. We were always good. And when I was young, I thought a different humanity, different people lived there. Not like us. [laughs]  Because I didn’t see them, so I didn’t touch them. And people would say to their kids, if you don’t wash your hands, you will wake up on the other side and they will kill you. So we grew up like that, and even our families who are democrats, they are not fascists. Then, when I started to read and talk to people, history wasn’t how we learnt it. Of course others – the Greek side did something bad. We did something bad as well. I never say that this side did more or less. I believe that this problem did not come from Turkish and Greek Cypriots. I always believed this, because before the 1960s, the Turkish, Greek and other nationalities lived together. And they didn’t have any problems. So what happened? I always believed Turkey, Greece, the UK, and the United States of America wanted to start some problem here, to come and bring their army here. And what did we learn? – what can I say…
NC: Why? Why do you think these countries wanted to create the problem?
MR: Because Cyprus is a very important location. Very important here. And we are small and they can control – America can control all the Mediterranean here. Like Iran, Egypt, Turkey. So that’s why they came here. And when Turkey came here in 1974, their president said we established one country to have peace with the Greeks and Turks, Turkey. Do you understand what I mean?
NC: Yes.
MR: We are one more country to have peace between Greece and Turkey.
NC: Because apparently Turkish Cypriots would be on the North side. Greek Cypriots in the South. And so that means separation, no problems. Maybe that’s right? Is this…
M: Yeah. What I would – my grandparents told me – we didn’t have any problem with our neighbors. So we talked with them, we went to the same schools. We talked their language, they learnt our language. And I always wonder, “what happened?” So, before 1960, the UK was here. And that…Greek Cypriots, from what I learned, from what I read, Greek Cypriots wanted to …what can I say… their country. They didn’t want a British army or the British here. So, they started a fight with them. Not, you know, maybe a real fight. And the Greek side started to say they were Greek. But they don’t want British. So what British did, they started to make Turkish police here. They started to be like the police. Lots of Turkish people started to become the police. Then they started to fight lots of police. So when they put them on the Greek side, they started to push police to stop them, so Greek people said – “look,” “watch,” so other side is Turkish police. But the police didn’t have money so they started to do their police jobs. And the British said, you have to stop that there. Then, slowly, slowly, Greek and Turkish people started to…how can I say this…
NC: Fight? Started to …
M: Fight, and go to…
NC: Division?
M: Divided, yeah. And…
NC: You mean it was the British who encouraged the Turkish Cypriot side to develop this police, from civilians.
MR: Yes.
NC: Civilians and…because there was no, there was no army back then. There wasn’t, like, an army, so they had to…
MR: …they had to control something, and with Turkish people. Cause I don’t think Greek people wanted to kill Turkish people, but when they saw the other side, the Turkish police – what they thought was that Turkish people didn’t want to live with them. And then the other thinks, and it is true for both sides… there’s lots of fascists I have to say. Sorry about that. But, you know, they put a bomb in Turkish houses, Turkish things, but they said it were Greek people who did that. Then Turkish people said – yeah, it’s Greek people, they don’t want us. So the Greek side did the same things. At the same time, we had TMT, I don’t know how to say that – do you know…
NC: It’s the police, right, TMT the …
MR: You know like army, but not Turkish…
NC: Like the 2nd EOKA.
MR: Like that, yes. On the other side, at the same time, you have the 2nd EOKA. So the 2nd EOKA started to kill people who wanted peace on the Greek side. And our side started to kill Turkish people who wanted peace with them. So we had lots of people killed from the 2nd EOKA and TMT – I don’t know the English name, it’s the first time I use TMT, so. Then, when I read some books and EOKA started to kill some people, to go to some villages and kill Turks. Then TMT started to kill some Greeks. Then, 1974 came. Armies from Turkey and Greece came here. With similar guns. The 2nd EOKA had similar guns. I read lots of books that said they had similar guns. Because I believe the 2nd EOKA came from out of Cyprus. I don’t know, maybe America, maybe England. And TMT had similar guns. Then they killed people in a similar way. Then Greece came here to find Makarios. Then Turkey came here for peace.
NC: Where was your family? Were your parents during that whole period? Were they married?
MR: in 196… they were young my mom and dad. In 1974, my father, unfortunately was fighting. And they always…they had some injuries from there and he had some problem with his foot since 1974.
NC: So he had to join the army?
MR: Yeah, he had to.
NC: He had to go to the war?
MR: Yeah. And they said, you know, we used guns. Maybe I killed someone and we lost our friends. But, I don’t think if I was fighting, if I’d think like them. But, they are very clear now they can go to the other side. They can have friends with them. And my mom was from Statos, and it was between 1963 and 1974, that were really big problems. Because, you know, the 2nd EOKA was always there. And then lots of people died. And …
NC: And the 2nd EOKA was against Turkish Cypriots as well, not only Greek Cypriots who didn’t want…
MR: Yes, they started with them. And, of course, the 2nd EOKA started to kill Turks. And our army started to kill others. Greek people.
NC: So your mother had some experience with the 2nd EOKA?
MR: No, she said they always waited a month before they came, and they killed them because in their village Statos, there were only Turkish people. But other villages were Greek, so. When I read one book, he explained the war from 1963. From the 1960s, and one is from Statos. He saw Greek people killing lots of men during that time.
NC: Turkish Cypriot men.
MR: Turkish Cypriot men.
NC: But did you ever ask your mother why she was telling you about how dark the other side was? When she was young did she have Greek Cypriot friends? Has she changed her mind telling you there were bad people on the other side?
MR: She didn’t tell me that the other side was bad, but this is what we learned. The sentence we learnt was, “if you don’t wash your face, you will wake up on the south side” – everyone says that. So, you know, my mom didn’t have any friends from the other side because there were only Turks in her village. And she was, you know, 1951 – didn’t have lots of time to live with them. And, our books, our historical books were always... Still now, all the historical books say that the Greeks did this and that, but we [Turkish Cypriots] are okay. We didn’t do anything. But, no one believes that now. The borders are open. People started talking again. So I believe that’s game. The big game, and we are …what’s the game?
NC: Like, on a … chess.
MR: Chess. We are on a…
NC: Chessboard.
MR: Yeah. Chessboard, and then…
NC: Little soldiers…
MR: Yes, big. Big people play with us.  So, I always say, we didn’t have any problem before. Then, when some countries want problems here, and they still want problems here, because, can you imagine – if we don’t have any problem with you, then, why do we need Turkey? Why do we need Greeks? Why do we need the British army here? So, they have an army here. They have fights, everywhere. They can watch the whole Mediterranean. So I think, you know…
NC: Ah, so, do you know people who have a different ideology than you? Who still believe that Greeks are bad and …
MR: Yes, of course.
NC: And from your experience these people are many?
MR: Yes, I know some people who still believe we can’t live together. Or, think they are bad and we are good. But I don’t think there are too many like that because in 2004 we had elections, the Annan Plan, and 65% of the people said yes from the North side. But I live in – I don’t know the English or Greek name – hasbla [?] close to Nicosia and next door, they normally call it Taskan. Normally, the right wing is strong there. They are not fascist; they are nationalist. So I always wonder why they are like that. And while I was reading a book, it said that the Greek army or EOKA, I don’t know, I don’t remember which one… came there and took all the men from the village. And they said we are going to exchange the people. We’re going to give the Turkish side to you, and we’re going to take the Greek people. And they killed all of them. Then, there was only one of them left, because they died as well. So again, imagine now why they are nationalists, because they killed all the men. And all the women had problems, had sexual things with the army. So it’s very difficult to change. We always believed that we can live together. We didn’t have any problems with them. And that all Turkish and all Greek people are not bad, yes. We have bad people and you have bad people, of course. But we have to increase -
NC: …Cooperation and understanding…
MR: …Yeah.
NC: You studied in Turkey and in England?
MR: Yes.
NC: What were your experiences there? Did you feel better living in Turkey or in England? Was it different there?
MR: Turkish people, believe me, don’t know anything about Cyprus. Turkey… When I went to Turkey, they asked me – “where is Cyprus? When you play football, your ball goes into the sea?” They think islands are very small. Of course they think, Cyprus our country, is Turkish, all Turkish. And this is part of Turkey. Which, you know, we hate this kind of ignorance. But normally, they think very small things. Because we are a very small country. When I went to England, lots of people didn’t know where or what Cyprus is. What the Cyprus problem is. We have maybe 1 million or 2 million Greeks, maybe 500,000 Turks, so this is – we shouldn’t have a big problem here. When I went to England, they didn’t know. Some people didn’t know anything, but yeah, Cyprus, Ayia Napa. They knew Ayia Napa [laughs]. That’s it.
NC: What was it like growing up in the North part of Cyprus? Was it…did you feel that you were isolated, did you feel…
MR: Yes. We grew up with Turkish television. We always watched Turkish, we watched Turkish teams. When you ask now, even when you ask kids now – “which team do you support?” They say [the names of] Turkish teams. They don’t say Turkish Cypriot teams. They don’t know any. They don’t watch any. Still, we have lots of Turkish Cypriot channels. People always watch the Turkish channel. So, we learnt the history of Turkey. We studied the history of Turkey – we didn’t study, we only studied a little bit of Cyprus’ history. At the end of my studies at primary and secondary school – people knew more things, or geography – we knew where Istanbul is; but people didn’t know where Larnaca is or Limassol. It really is, you know, this is a game. I always believed this was a game. This is part of the political game. It isn’t very difficult to teach people our history, our geography, but they didn’t. And I don’t think your side is similar. But our side…
NC: There are many similarities. I feel the same. When I was in school, we were taught the history of Greece. A little bit of Cyprus’ history, but very little. Yes, we used to know everything about Greece. In Cyprus, okay I would hear from my parents about their village – Lapithos.
MR: Now that I remember, when we had exams, a history exam – our teacher said, 80% I will ask you about Turkey’s history, 20% about Cyprus’ history. [laughs] We are from Cyprus and we live in Cyprus.
NC: When you talk with other people, what do you talk about? With regards to how you want to live in Cyprus and what kind of life you want to have.
MR: Now, what do we talk about with our friends?
NC: Yes, exactly.
M: I believe I don’t want to live with armies – any armies. I believe we can live together, peacefully, in peace. And normally, all my friends believe the same as me. Because I like to talk and do something about it. I think it’s very difficult to be honest. But we have to try and we have to do something. To live together without the British, English, American, and Turkish armies.
NC: Do you have siblings? Do you have brothers and sisters? Or, is it just you, the only child in the family?
M: I have brothers. I have one brother that lives in Australia. Yeah, he had to move. He couldn’t find a job so he had to do something, so he moved to Australia.
NC: So it’s really difficult to be there, both ideologically and politically there are difficulties?
MR: Ideology but also economically…our side is…, you know... Is what our president – the first president, Rauf Denktash said, “it doesn’t matter, one Turkish Cypriot went to the other side, but we have lots of people to come here.” So, they don’t care, you know, because this is part of the game, as well. Maybe, I don’t know the number exactly, but lots of people live away from Cyprus. And they have good jobs, and they live happily. But I don’t think they are happy, because they are away from their country and their family and their friends. My brother stayed here after his university. But he couldn’t live. He wasn’t happy. He couldn’t find a good job. So, then he left. And then lots of people did that. Lots of young people. When you asked, I always talk with people at the university. I ask them, “are you planning to come back?” All of them say no. Because we have the same problem in 50 years. Leaders do nothing, so. It’s very difficult, but we try. I studied city planning and then I went to London to get my Masters. Then, I came here and I opened a bookshop. [laugh] So, people have to start. They have to try, I believe. They shouldn’t move away. They should try to do something to build our country.
NC: Many Turkish Cypriots are leaving Cyprus. Are you afraid that eventually Turkish Cypriots are going to be eliminated? They will be less and less, fewer and fewer. Is this a concern?
MR: Yes, that is I think part of the game, as well. So one day, hopefully not, but one day will come and we will have 10%, 15% - and then Turkey will say, so, all Turkish Cypriots want to be part of Turkey, or, all of them don’t want to have their country, so.  It’s getting easier to divide the country – Cyprus. Now we are divided but still, your people and our people want to be together. But after 50, 60, 80 years – we will not be here. Already eliminated, so I don’t know what’s going to happen.
NC: When you were in England, what was it like to say that you are Cypriot? I guess they were asking if you are Turkish Cypriot. Did you have any difficulties being Turkish Cypriot, being from ‘TRNC,’ an illegal ‘state’, a non-existent country for the international community? Did you experience any difficulties with this?
MR: Normally, you know…
NC: Or did you have to say you’re from Turkey in order to be easier understand your whereabouts?
MR: Yea, sometimes. It’s true, I would say Turkey because they didn’t know where Cyprus was. A very small island where Turkish people and Greek people live. And then we are divided. We are one country from 1983 – they can’t imagine that. Sometimes it’s true I would say, yeah, I’m from Turkey. [laughs] I don’t like it, but because sometimes they would start to talk to me in Greek. I would say, I don’t understand. “How come you don’t understand; you’re from Cyprus?” So I am from Cyprus, I am Turkish, we had conflicts and then we were divided, blah blah blah [laughs].
NC: Did you belong to any associations at the university?
MR: In Turkey I did. We had a Turkish Cypriot association… one platform, and we tried to do something for this country, for our problems, we tried to contact Greek people, we went to Greece, because the borders in Cyprus weren’t open yet.
NC: Is there anything else you remember and you would like to share with me, maybe from your family?
MR: I live now in a town that was Greek, you know. They had to go to the other side after the war. So my family came there and they started to live there. And when the borders opened, the owners came. And when she went indoors, she remembered – after 30 years, she remembered everything. Where the lights were, where the sockets were, she remembered. It was very interesting for me.
NC: How did you feel? Was it weird to have some people start coming and they are like “oh, I know this, and this…,” how did you feel?
MR: They built this house to live in. And somebody tells them to go, and my family comes. But we never thought. “Is this house our house?” Sometimes I asked my father – “why don’t you change this, or that?”  This house is not our house, we have to give this house back to them one day.
NC: Your family had to leave their house as well – your mother, she left from the house they used to live?
MR: No, no no. When she got married…they…they had lots of empty houses from the Greeks, you know. When the war happened, my father was in the army so they give him compensation, you know. This house was given to us. My mom’s family lived in Statos. They were Turkish and they didn’t want to go anywhere, and my father didn’t want to move either. But I know lots of people who moved 2, 3 times.
NC: Back in 1963, right?
MR: Yeah, I know one from my family. They moved in 1973 from the South, I don’t know – from Linou, I think. From Linou to Lefka. Then, in 1974 they moved from Lefka to Morfou. So, it was really difficult for both sides. Greek and Turkish. But, I always said, this is a game. And they put us in this game with them. So, I don’t remember so many things [laughs].
NC: Is there something you feel like telling your kids someday, because of your own learning experiences out of this, or maybe to teach them in a certain way? Because this is like a learning experience for you, and you may use something that you learned.
MR: If I have kids, I think I will have a big problem with education, because I know some things. And if I see history books still lying, I won’t want to teach that. When I was, I can explain, when I was young – I went to some houses, like museums. People were killed inside. There was blood. And brains broken open, brains open – you know, it was disgusting. When I have kids, I can’t let them see this. Because I couldn’t sleep when I went to bed.  How can you watch these things, at 7 or 8 years old? So, this is part of the game as well. People say, “take them, and go to the museum and see what Greek people did.” I am sure the kids at your side also went somewhere and saw what the Turkish did. So we shouldn’t do that. Of course we had problems, it wasn’t our problem but we killed each other. But now when you look at the world, the French and English went to war. Germany’s Hitler did so many things. So they can live. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about people on the other side. I don’t have friends, I have lots of friends from England, or Trinidad and Tobago, I have friends – but I don’t have friends from the Greek side. It’s, you know, we live in the same land and I can’t share anything from the other side. It’s very sad for me.
NC: So in England, you didn’t meet any Greek Cypriot? I guess you met Greeks.
MR: I met some, yes. But I didn’t have a very close relationship with any. But yes, I will explain to all of them what I learned, and definitely, I won’t tell them we had big problems because of the Greeks. Or, that they always killed us. Or blah blah… I believe this problem is a game from the other countries. I’ll always explain this. But in school, definitely I don’t want others to teach them lies.
NC: What do you think history should be…what kind of events, maybe…should be included in the history books? What kind of information?
MR: It should include information, you know…I don’t think all people are going to make peace, but our kids can start to, if people say I don’t believe in the Annan Plan, o.k., because someone says you will have this country, this flag, blah, blah. It won’t work. Our kids maybe, we start to talk. Maybe our kids start to have more things to do. So, then peace will come slowly slowly. No one will say, tomorrow we will have peace… Our president now still talks, talks, talks. They shouldn’t talk. We should talk. People should talk. They play, they dance, they should have a meeting conference. And then have peace. If Christofias and Eroglu have one plan, and they say these people will live there, these people will live there – it will not work. I don’t believe that. I believe people should make peace from both sides. So this is all I can tell you.
NC: Tell me about your grandparents, did you meet your grandparents?
M: Yes, when I was young. Not too old. I didn’t talk with them too much about this, because my family lived with Turks. But, my father in 1963 was 12 years old… And he brought water and milk for them. And then what he said when he was fighting, when they saw the Greek army, they raised the Greek flag. And then when they saw the Turkish army, they raised the Turkish flag. And they were avoiding their village.
NC: So that was back in 1963? Before that, your grandparents and your parents did they have any exchanges with Greeks?
M: They had …they moved from Arpalik. I don’t know the Greek name but…
NC: Is it in Kyrenia or Morfou?
M: No, no. It’s on the other side. The South side. The Turkish name was Arpalik, but I don’t remember the Greek name.
NC: Which city, Limassol or Paphos?
M: I don’t remember [laughs] I didn’t go.
NC: Okay. So your grandparents, were living in the South? When did they move?
M: They moved a long, long time ago.
NC: Before …the…
M: Yea, before. I think they didn’t have any problem to move. They just wanted to move. And still it’s Bilela [?], Kyrenia’s village. Now it’s the other city’s village, not Kyrenia. Damenik’s [?] village; they changed it 5 years ago. So, it’s a very small village. So they moved there and they started to live – I don’t know, maybe they moved for financial reasons. To have some animals, to breed…
NC: Merter, thank you very much.