ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

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Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Oztoprak Canan / Οζτοπράκ Τζανάν
Sex (Φύλο): Female (Γυναίκα)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): Before (Πριν το) 1960
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Nicosia (Λευκωσία)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Other (Άλλο)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): Yes (Ναι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Nikoletta Christodoulou: So, I’m here today because I want to hear your story about 1974… What do you know about 1974? Feel free to connect this date with memories that extend well before that year. How did you experience the events of 1974? Where were you on that day? What were you doing?
Canan Oztoprak: [First, I need to say that]  we left our home in 1963. I think the project is about the Cyprus conflict. And 1974 is one of the phases of Cyprus conflict, but I have lived all the phases I think. And all my generation also, most of them lived all the phases. So, I would like to start from, maybe it was 1958 or ‘59, I cannot tell the date because I was born in 1955 in Linou and, soon after that, my father was registered as a policeman and he had to, we, the whole family, had to move to Paphos.
So I spent the first 7 years of my life in Paphos. And the very first memory of me was knocking on the door after the … [incomprehensible] session and it was a little bit late to open the door, my mother … it was a little bit late. And there was this green buzz of the police car. It was a curfew, and everybody had to be in their homes. It was the English policeman car, and we had to be inside. I knew, from a very young age, that it was forbidden to be outside when you hear that noise. So they were knocking, and, even now I can remember my heartbeats. I was so frightened until my mother opened the door. And later, there was this troubles with Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots in Paphos district.
NC: That was in 19..
CO: 19…1958 and ‘59. During that period. And just before the making of the Republic of Cyprus, the independence of Cyprus. And, there was another incident. And, some of the Turkish Cypriot homes were burnt. And afterwards, there were some places, immediately, to rescue the good, etc. But I have a memory again from all this, since some of my childhood photographs were burned, and which we managed to keep. But they have the burning edge. So, it is a memory from all my childhood, until now.
NC: You still have the pictures? Do you still have this picture?
CO: Yes, yes, I still have it. Sometimes I talk about this as a bad example. It was a bitter example actually. And later on, when I was a grown up, I always kept this memory. And I promised myself to work very hard to reach peace in Cyprus in order to protect my children and the other generations to have this kind of bitter experiences.  And later, when we were in Paphos, my father asked to be sent to our village’s district. And there was a police station very close to Linou. It was Evrychou, and he asked to be sent to Evrychou, as the only Turkish Cypriot policeman out of twenty police stations.  And, we managed to live one and a half years there. And I started to go to school again in Linou. I studied the first year of elementary school in Paphos. And, the second year in Linou. At the beginning of my third year in elementary school, we were again with travels. It was around 1963. Linou was a mixed village. It is a very nice place in the valley…I used to love the smell, especially, of my village. But we had to leave, again. And we moved to Lefke. And again, one day, there were flames behind the mountain. And all the people from my village, of course they knew where the flame was coming from, because of the geographic place. They said, “Our houses are burning.” So, again, like in Linou. We were living in Lefke this time and we had to leave the village again. Our houses were okay when we left. After one month or two months, they burnt them. Our villagers or somebody else came, burnt them, I don’t know.
NC: Do you have any idea who did it?
CO: I don’t know.
NC: Have you heard anything about it?
CO: We cannot say that our neighbors did it. Maybe it was somebody else. Some fanatics, most probably Greek Cypriots. Unfortunately. They burnt the homes. So, after a while, after ’63, there were some better days. And some of the villagers returned to their homes. But we couldn’t, because there weren’t any houses.
NC: You couldn’t, because your home was burnt down.
CO: Yeah. Some people went back to their villages after the 1963 events. In ‘67/8, they went back. But we didn’t have this opportunity.
NC: The reason you were moving was because of your father’s job?
CO: No, the Greek Cypriots were insulting or attacking the Turkish Cypriots. Because, we were the first family to move, because, as I said, my father was the only policeman. So his friends from Lefke station called him to immediately come back, because they heard some incidences….that the few Turkish Cypriot policemen were shot, and some Greek Cypriot policemen were shot somewhere. So the troubles were starting, or they had started already. There were very few incidences, but first they called back the policemen who were only in those stations to….protect them. Now, in any case, if there would be something bad. So, we…
NC: Is there a reason for which he was the only policeman? I mean, why he was the only Turkish Cypriot policeman in that area?
CO: In that district, he was the only policeman.
NC: Is there a reason for this?
CO: And if you look at the proportion in the government offices, etc., Turkish Cypriots were fewer.
NC: So it was a proportion that was decided..?
CO: I don’t know if it was agreed upon but in the area, I think my father was the only Turkish Cypriot policeman registered through the government. It is a mountain area. So, nobody wanted to go and work there. But my father wanted to work there, because it was only one mile away from our village, Linou. It was very good for him. And we went, after the troubles, to Lefke, in order to go back to Linou easily and as fast as possible. Because everywhere, in the news etc., it was mentioned that the problem was going to be solved very quickly. But…we had to stay 11 years, until ’74.
NC: In Lefke?
CO: In Lefke, as refugees. Yes, I am a refugee from 1963. Yeah… And, in 1974, I was in Lefke.  And I was actually at the first years, first years holiday of my university degree. Just when I came for the holiday…there was war.
NC: It was summer holidays?
CO: It was summer…
NC: And you were studying…?
CO: I was studying in Middle East Technical University in Ankara. And…..uh….first there was the coup on July 15th.  And, first we were thinking, maybe it is not related with us. But afterwards, there were some attacks also to the Turkish Cypriot villages.  And, on the 20th, there was this…big war.  So the…
NC: …the attacks were from… the people who…brought the coup? You know, the military coup?
CO: Yeah–
NC: Or was it from, uh, other regular people?
CO: We heard that it was from those people, from the-
NC: the military.
CO: the coup. We didn’t have any attack, for example, in Lefke, but we heard that there were some attacks also to the Turkish Cypriots.
NC: Did you know any Cypriots who were…
CO: No, I don’t know, because we were living in Lefke. And in those years there were six Turkish Cypriots. And, in Lefke there was only one of them. So In Lefke, there weren’t any Greek Cypriots. Only Turkish Cypriots were living there at the time.
NC: I see…
CO: And, uh, on the 20th, when the Turkish troops landed in Kyrenia, it was first announced on the radio that “Turkey is here now to restore the government again. To bring the peace to the republic,” because Makarios was off from his duty, etc.  And for a few moments, we thought that, “well, it is not going to be anything with us.” But, unfortunately, the Greek Cypriots immediately began to attack the town, as well.  And Lefke was also in a valley, and there were very high mountains out there. And, it is very easy to attack the town. So, after a while, there were fire guns also. Fire bombs. And it is all within the grape and orange yards, so they began to burn.
And the army person said, “all the people are going to die, so let us say that we are prisoners, we are prisoners.” So we put the white flag, and Lefke was settled to the Greek Cypriots. And…we stayed for 16 or 17 days until the second operation.
NC: But the Turkish Army didn’t know that Greek Cypriots were close to Lefke then?
CO: They knew. They knew. And in some hours, there were some jets passing through, but no operation on the other parts, other than the Kyrenia part, where they [the Turkish army] landed.  Because afterwards, we read that it was very difficult for them [the Turkish army] to reach all the parts. They had to concentrate only to those parts, in order to land. So, they couldn’t help us. And we put the white flag, and Lefke was war prison of the Greek Cypriots. Although we heard there were Greek soldiers also… High level commanders, from Greece. But I think on purpose…they didn’t send the Greek soldiers inside the town. It was all Greek Cypriots. So, we knew some of them. For example, some of them were from our villages. And I think this was a good thing. And there wasn’t any bloodshed when they came into the town.
NC: So how did you feel, when this…
CO: It was extremely bad. It was very, very sad experience. We have to say bye-bye to my father, because when they came to take us over, they said women on one side, men on the other. And we had to say bye-bye, because we didn’t know what would happen. Maybe, most probably, they were going to kill – at least the men. So we said bye-bye forever to each other. It was very sad experience.
NC: Who was with you at the time?
CO: My father, I am the only child. So, I was with my mother, we said bye-bye to my father. And we came out of the cinema, because we, the whole town, were gathered in the cinema. And we walked out of the cinema. And the soldiers were leading us to the mosque. And the first woman, who they reached to the mosque, they saw that it was burning. So immediately they remember the trauma of Rodos or Kidit [incomprehensible] – I don’t remember which one is it. It is written in the history books, that some of the Turkish people living there were burnt in their mosque.  So everybody was very frightened. That they are going to repeat the same thing for us, that we are going to be burnt in the mosque. And everybody was crying, etc. I have a memory, for example, there. It was my turn to get out of the cinema and go to the mosque. And there were jet planes passing through. And I said – a jet is ‘uçmak’ in Turkish – I said “uçmak! uçmak!” [laughs] This is hope, of course. You want to be rescued. And the soldier said “uçmak? uçmak? Den eshi tipote, perpata! [‘keep walking!’ in Greek]” So, I learned [laughs] a few words from Greek language on that day. Then later, they changed the venue. And nothing happened to the people, except from some of the civilians also, who while they bombed, and shooting, we had five women who were killed, some men also, in the army places, etc. But it was 11 or 12, I don’t know. But before it was too many. Actually, Lefke was war prison. So we stayed for 16 or 17 days, until the second operation.
NC: You went back to your house in Lefke then?
CO:  Yes…yes, they took us over. To the center, the center of the town. And later, they sent us to our homes.  First, the women and children. And later, the men, too.
NC: So how many passed… until you saw your father again? Or it was immediate?
CO: It was one day later. Only…only one night we spent apart.
NC: Did you know at that time... that he was okay?
CO: We knew he was okay, because if it was something bad…we…we should hear about it. At least the gunfire, etc. Later, we were at our homes, we cooked our meals, we ate, etc.  And the only [laughs] bad thing I remember on those days was that when it was dinnertime, there was gunfire. And we couldn’t [laughs] … I…I…was very frightened, I think, on those days.  And after 16 days, it was the second operation. And the operation first started towards Famagusta.  And we were in Lefke. And by the mid of the first day, we saw the photographs of the massacre in [two villages where] … Turkish Cypriots were killed, and put in the same grave. Twenty or thirty of them. And [sighs], we were thinking… I was thinking that the same thing will happen to us, as well. Because I could never imagine that after all these efforts and the operation they will leave us alive and go back… And, that the ending point will be Famagusta in East, and Lefke in West.  And it will be over.  We shall not continue.
NC: So Lefke was not going to be part of the…
CO: Lefke was going to be part of the Turkish Cypriot part. And it would end there. And end in Famagusta. And, well, everything continued very quickly. It was over, from the first day, they were in Famagusta. On the second day, the radio announced that they were coming to Lefke, but there wasn’t any noise, especially in the afternoon.  And because they gave also a time, that by 6 o’clock PM everything would be over… Turkey promised the international community that it will be over. And we were trying to see what was going on. Of course, we were all hidden in the houses or in the gardens, etc. And there was a neighbor behind our house, within our house garden, in our neighbor’s house, whom we thought he would definitely be war prisoner. Because they were collecting all the men from houses, taking them to Limassol, to the camp [as prisoners to be exchanged later on with Greek Cypriot prisoners captured by the Turkish army]. Because, you see, my father was a policeman, and he knew that our neighbor was a registered policeman, too. So, on that day, while the Turkish army was approaching, Greek Cypriots were… taking them… For example, a neighbor’s son was taken. And, in one day, his mother’s hair, eyebrows, etc. became white. It was the first time I saw something like that. But she was saying that I was crying, and she was saying, “please don’t take my son, etc.” And the boy, Greek Cypriot soldier, was also crying, saying, “I have to take your son because my brother is also war prisoner. So we are going to give them [Turkish Cypriots] to get them [Greek Cypriots] back.” There were all these bitter experiences of people. And at last, in some part, I remember that we had to go to our home to get something. And it was on the main road. And when I entered the house, there I saw again—like in my childhood memory—a police car coming from the corner. And immediately, I went inside and closed the door.  And, the car stopped in front of our home. And I didn’t know what to do. And there were English, screaming in English. And it was United Nations soldiers actually, saying that “Open your doors! Open your windows! The Turkish army is here. Go and meet them.” First, we didn’t believe. Later, we saw that it was true.  We went there and we met them. In those years, I was a peace activist. And I remember myself to be very happy, because it was something related to my fear being dead, or my family’s death, or my loved ones’ death. But, of course, after that, I knew that it was not the fault of Turkish Cypriots or Greek Cypriots only that all these troubles began and continued and are still like this.  So, I continue now, always, to work very hard, for peace. And, in ’74, we became refugees once again.
NC: For the… second time?
CO: For the third time. The first time, our home was burnt and we moved to a temporary home. If I don’t consider that, it was the second time. The second time is from Lefke to Morfou, because we had to move again. This time, the third time, we moved to a Greek Cypriot home [after 1974].
NC: Okay.
CO: And it was a bitter, a very bitter experience again. Because, since we had lived this situation in ’63, we knew how it felt to leave your family, leave your house, and go away [what Greek Cypriots were forced to do in 1974]. Especially for my father… I was a university student at that time, so I didn’t stay at that home [that belonged to a Greek Cypriot] for a long time. But, when I came for the holidays, I remember it was extremely difficult for me to sleep in that home [knowing that it was of Greek Cypriots who were forced to abandon it]. And, uh-
NC: So your father and mother were living in the house…
CO: Yeah… My father was, again, a policeman in those years. And I remember that he was saying, he asked his commander, the person in charge, to put him only to the night shift. Not to work on the day shift, because in the day shift, they had to patrol the Greek Cypriot villages. And they couldn’t bear to see those sceneries…where the houses were opened, abandoned…that the people [Greek Cypriots had] left everything. Because it was like being forced to immediately relive the same situation of ’63.
NC: So he didn’t think happily for what happened to Greek Cypriots…
CO: No, no he didn’t.
NC: And he remembered his own experience, so he felt bad for them…
CO: Yes, he remembered his own experience. And [for this reason] he couldn’t be happy and say, “good for them; they got what they deserved.” And my parents still live in Morfou until now. And, I have another memory. Again, very interesting and emotional for me. And it is about the opening of the borders.
NC: Opening… what?
CO: Opening of the borders. As you know, suddenly, one day, the borders opened and the people, immediately, started to go and come back for work [crossing the borders back and forth]. And, especially the Greek Cypriots, they went back to their homes 30 years after they left them. And it was really, very emotional and shocking to see that almost all Turkish Cypriots kept the photographs of the [Greek Cypriot] families, who were the owners of the homes. And they didn’t even tell to each other that they did this. After a while…
NC: You mean…the Turkish Cypriots kept…
CO: The Turkish Cypriots who… lived in the houses of the Greek Cypriots—[but remember that Turkish Cypriots] were also refugees, because there was exchange of population between Turks and Makarios, and so Greek Cypriots went to the South and Turkish Cypriots came to the North. And all Turkish Cypriots were given a Greek Cypriot home to live. Turkish Cypriots came from Limassol, Paphos, etc.  But Turkish Cypriots didn’t tear up or burn the photographs.  They kept them, but they didn’t say anything, maybe because they thought it would be harmful for them. Maybe the authorities would think that they were friends with Greek Cypriots etc.  So, they didn’t say anything, but at the same time they didn’t tear them. And, almost all the Greek Cypriots who knocked the door of their homes, they found some memories from their past. Turkish Cypriots shared the photographs. And I remember, for example, our shop is very close to the Ledra Palace checkpoint.  It was the only checkpoint open on those days. And I even saw one woman holding her wedding gown with her.
NC: She found her –
CO: She found. And some of them, holding their bride photographs, with the frames and the like. And after this event, in one month’s time, we were in a peace conference again with another friend in Prague. And I was sharing the room with a Greek Cypriot friend of mine. And she asked me, “Canan, I want to ask you something. Is it something related with your religion that the photographs shouldn’t be tear up? Or did the authorities give this order to the people, to keep all these photographs? Because I was very surprised to see that nearly all the families found their pictures in the homes. All the Turkish Cypriots gave the pictures.” I said, no, none of them is true. It is not in the religion and it was not a command of the authorities. But, “I think,” I said, “since the Turkish Cypriots lived this situation before, they knew how it feels. To leave everything behind and go away. And to have no history of your life.  I think it is because of that.” And really I was very proud to see this humanity between the families. And still, there are many families who are connected to each other, with the same home, the same house, to become home of two families. It is the connection point for them. And I see or hear that they go to picnic or even to holiday abroad, to Turkey, to Greece together. So, uh…I was very hopeful when the borders opened. That this friendship would nourish, and that the people would find a solution together very easily. Unfortunately, the 2003 referendum was an upset for us…because, you know, the Turkish Cypriots said a very big ‘yes.’ And the Greek Cypriots said a very big ‘no.’ And, maybe the time was not enough for the Greek Cypriot to see that also there are good opportunities in the Annan Plan; that with time it will be better, it can be revisited, improved. But it couldn’t be realized. And now the situation is, again, very difficult. The demography in North is changing. And, I hope this will be our last chance, or a good chance, that these negotiations are still continuing. And there is this willingness of the United Nations and the EU to solve the problem. I hope it will be solved.  And our children and grandchildren will live in a better condition. Because Cyprus is a very beautiful island. We love our island. We love our country, both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots.  We have a lot of common ways. We love kebab, souvlaki (laughs). We love baklava.
NC: and coffee…
CO: Coffee… And we like dancing; music. We have similar dances, music, etc.  So we can manage to share this beautiful island. And it is not the problem of tightness; it can fit all of us actually. But mainly, it is again an international problem. Unfortunately, the geography places a handcuff.  If, for example… Recently there was a very interesting art exhibition. And one of our artists imagined Cyprus in a very distant part of the ocean [laughs]. So if it was there, how our lives would be?
NC:  Nobodys knows.
CO: [Laugh] Nobody could know and nobody would care what we are doing over here. So, I think it is up to the Cypriots to come together. And work together to have a future, better future for all of us.
NC: But this is another question…that comes up. As you said, Cypriots used to live good together until all this politics, international interests arose, and then the situation was created. Like, in 1963, ‘67, ‘68, ‘74. So if it was only up to the Cypriots, they would probably be fine, living together nicely. But apparently it’s not – it’s not only up to the Cypriots.
CO: They –
NC: Because of all these, as you said, and the geographic position, everybody wants to take a little piece from Cyprus.
CO: Yeah.
NC: So is it up to the people, you think? Unless, people are very powerful…but people are not very powerful, I think, or that’s how it seems.
CO: Well, actually people… I think another obstacle is that people do not foresee the future very much. The person I remember in this bicommunal work who had foreseen this problem very well was Lordos. Father Lordos. I was in one of the conferences of the businessmen association.
NC: Lordos was the hotel, though.
CO: Yeah
NC: Okay.
CO: And, he was one of the speakers. And he was saying that, “Well, we have to use the power of money and trade to solve this problem, because money doesn’t have nationality and it doesn’t consider anybody else. So, if we learn to gain from each other, it will also be a tool for us to reach peace.” And I remember another Greek Cypriot businessman, very rich man—I don’t remember his name now—he asked him a question, “May I ask you something?” “Yes” “Are you also considering the settlers to trade with? Because you said all of us have to make trade in order to nourish peace between us. And when you say all, do you consider also settlers?”, he said with accusation towards him. And he stopped for a moment and said, “Well, my friend, if we continue with this mind of yours, in the very near future, if we consider that now, the majority of Cyprus population is Greek Cypriots, and in the other part it is Turkish Cypriots, so they are secondary citizens, soon Greek Cypriots will become the secondary citizens, the Turkish Cypriots will become third, and those people that you are saying, settlers, will become first.” So, it was a very good notation. And I’m afraid that the day is approaching. I’m afraid that in a few years time there is not going to be any Turkish Cypriots politician on the [negotiations] table. Because in the elections, I really think things will change.
NC: So, you worry about the demographics…
CO: I worry about demographics, but now since I am in the human rights foundation, and I’m reading a lot about human rights. It’s an issue of human rights. And, uh, actually, it’s the right of those people to also live here. Because it was also considered in Annan Plan that 50,000 of them were going to stay here. Because there are many, many, many of them who were born here. They don’t know anything of the Turkish towns where their families, parents and grandparents, were born in Turkey. They, themselves, have never been there. They consider themselves Turkish Cypriots. But, for example, there are mixed marriages. Many. And now their children cannot get Cyprus Republic passport. For example, they come, a lot of them, to Turkish Cypriot Human Rights Foundation to file application that their human rights are violated. Because their mothers or fathers are Turkish Cypriots, born in Limassol, Paphos, etc.  But they cannot get [Cyprus Republic documents]. And, you know, this isn’t only demographic change of North. It will be and it is the demographic change of South as well. Because, for example, the government started giving some of them IDs. The mixed marriages. For example, we have two girls working with us. One is from a mixed marriage. The other one’s, both her father and mother are from Turkey but she was born here. All her education here. And, for example, for the first time. there is educational support from the EU to Turkish Cypriot students. And for the first time, she was considered Turkish Cypriot since she was born here, educated totally here, and now she is a lawyer, 25 years old. What shall we call her? Turkish? She doesn’t know anything about Turkey. So this is against human rights. So European Union helped to approve that she is Turkish Cypriot. And she has a right to apply for scholarship, and she got the scholarship. So, in time, Lordos’ proposition can be a reality. So, we have to work hard to reach a valuable…solution.
NC: And the problem is that people keep coming…
CO: It’s become an issue circle, because people keep coming, and since we couldn’t put a dot with Annan Plan. It was a very, very good opportunity for us. Because the persons who were here…there was a measure also. If, for maybe 15 years they were here. Or, if they have a child born here. There was some measures. Everybody was not going to stay again. But since that dot wasn’t there. Now, it’s almost ten years after that and there are more people coming and staying.  And now they are saying, “we are here for ten years, and you don’t give us ID.” Now it has stopped. For 8 years, there aren’t any persons who became citizens in the North. But still…
NC: You, Turkish Cypriots, also requested that it stops, right?
CO: Everybody said that it should stop. Because the sources cannot feed everybody in the North.
NC: Um [pause]. For the Annan Plan, why didn’t those who should have worked hard to convince people in both sides, do their job well, maybe, to inform people?
CO: They couldn’t. They didn’t have enough time. They didn’t have enough time to convince everybody. And there was a very nice “apple” in front of Greek Cypriots: that they were going to become members of EU, and they had the right to become members of EU without Turkish Cypriots.  If the question up to them was, “you are going to become member of EU after solution,” they would be more eager to have a common way. At least they were going to struggle more to change some of the subjects so it would be good for referendum to have a say. But the president of the Greek Cypriots at that time didn’t consider it too much to make it better for Greek Cypriots. Because he thought, “even though they say no, we are going to be part of EU.” It doesn’t matter.  “Let’s start from here and we shall have North by force of law.” But it didn’t come to rule like that. And especially, one of the decisions of the human rights court in Europe, mentioned that the second generation of the houses don’t have any rights from the house. It’s something like that. Because there was an application of the children of the family, that they have these memories, etc. in the home, they have to be paid for this? And the decision, I think it was Demopoulos decision, I think. And it was said that, “we cannot consider the children also of this having this… and wanting to return to the house.  On the other hand, we have to consider the other family also. Living for 30 years in that home.  Even though they are not the owners, they have also this attachment to this home. So, it became more and more complicated to solve this problem. Because some of the decisions of the court is very good for Greek Cypriots. Some of the decisions are good for Turkish Cypriots or for Turkish actually. In this case, it is with Turkey.
NC: I see. I have a few more questions about when you were studying in Ankara… you came for summer vacation. Did you know anything about what was going on in Cyprus?
CO: No, nothing! I, we came at the end of June. We didn’t know something was going to happen. Immediately, the coup happened.
NC: And, you didn’t even know anything about the coup, and anything about the…
CO: We heard, of course, when we came here. We heard there were troubles in the South.  There were troubles between them. But, we didn’t think it was going to develop like this.
NC: Okay. Um, which radio station did you used to listen to?
CO: By that time, we had Turkish Cypriot radio. My father was listening to BBC, R.I.K. (CyBC), etc. Because he knows Greek and English as well.
NC: Do you speak Greek?
CO: I…learned later. A little bit, very little.
NC: I see. And you mentioned Makarios. So Makarios at those days was considered to be the president of everyone? Or did you, Turkish Cypriots, considered him to be…
CO: In the times of the Republic?
NC: Yes.
CO: No, he was president of everybody. And a Turkish Cypriot was the vice president of everybody.
NC: So that was in 1960, when the Republic was…
CO: 1960, not after ‘63.
NC: Oh, so in ’63, it stopped?
CO: In ’63, it stopped because Turkish Cypriots were scared of the authorities.
NC: How did you feel about this change?
CO:  It was very normal for us, this division. Because we were kept in like... In order to drive to Lefkosia, we had to be searched at three checkpoints. On the way from Lefke. When you go, just outside Lefke, and you go Astromerides, and again Lefkosa. So it was normal for us to have two different authorities.  We didn’t have any connection. We didn’t have any appropriate behavior from the policeman or the authorities to make us feel that we were also part of them. They were behaving us like rebels, or enemies. So, while I was a child, and later growing up, being apart seemed to be very normal. “Since we don’t love each other, since we are enemies, we have to live apart,” I was thinking. Later, when I developed my political views, I could realize and analyze the situation better.
NC: The camp in Limassol, where they were taking Turkish Cypriots, were they holding them there for a long time? Do you know of anyone who was…
CO: Yes, my father-in-law was there. They were kept for, 5 months, something like that. It was a long time.
NC: And, his family, was there anyway to find out about him…
CO: After the division, there was some communication I think, through the United Nations. They were sending letters back and forth. They were sending messages to radio that they were alive and radio was broadcasting them.
NC: What is a good solution that you see to this problem?
CO: I feel a federation is a good solution. To have a federation where…I liked very much the Annan Plan. It was very balanced for me.  Because there was opportunities for the Greek Cypriots who couldn’t bear to stay away from their home to come back, even though it was a lesser proportion to North. And there was the same opportunity to Turkish Cypriots. And they are very little actually. Because very recently I saw an article, results of a poll conducted. And it said that very few people insist on going back and living there. But they insist on their rights, that they are owners. So they can have exchange, they can have the money, etc.  So, this is a very powerful way of the Cyprus problem. We can use this tool to reach a solution.
NC: And you believe that we can live all together?
CO: Like the Greeks we can be. The Greek Cypriots have to know that the main say, especially for the localities, is on them. And the Turkish Cypriots, we have the say in the North, at least for the localities, religion, etc. But for the international relations, we will have only one voice. And I don’t think it will be a problem for the Turkish Cypriots mainly. Because they are already taking advantage of the opportunity to be issued and be holders of the Cyprus passport. Because, it is their right to have that.
NC: And now it’s also easier because you can easily…
CO: …Travel…
NC: …You can easily travel here. Is there anything else that you feel you want to share?
CO: I think I covered everything [laughs].
NC: I think so as well.
CO: I kept you very long but…
NC: No, actually it was very interesting for me and I appreciate this. I want to ask you about an experience I had on Saturday when I went to my mother’s village, Lapithos.
CO: Lapithos.
NC: So I went to the house of my mother, and I know that there are Turkish Cypriots living there. And that her son-in-law who is married to one of her daughters is from Turkey. So I thought, you know, “that’s great, I can start from there. I can interview them, and then his son in law from Turkey as well.” Anyway, so she opened the door, she was very welcoming.
CO: It was the first time visiting?
NC: For me, yes. My parents went in 2003 when..uh, but I wasn’t in Cyprus, I was studying abroad, so I didn’t go with them.  But my sister went with them, and my brother, I think. So she saw everyone except from me. For me it was the first time, getting in the house. And the first time I saw her. So, I told her, “I am the daughter of the owner of the house.” She showed me around the house.  I think I was there for 45 minutes, talking with her. She was talking about her family. And then I said, “I want to tell you the reason I am here.  I am doing this research … and I want to hear from you what is your story…”
CO: Yeah.
NC: She actually became very hostile. She told me that I’m illegal. That what I’m doing is very illegal. Because she said, “who gave you authorization to do so?” I said: “I’m a researcher, an independent researcher. I work at a university, and I’m just doing research, so I don’t think I’m illegal. If you don’t want to tell your story, I’m not going to force you, I’m just going to leave.” Anyway, she said that I can’t, she said that she could call the police and detain me, because of what I was doing. “Because of the political issue,” she said.  And I said, “well, I don’t think it’s that serious issue.” And I tried to explain again what I’m doing, and, [mumbles]. Anyway, she said she would call the police, but it seemed she liked me. Because she knew I was the daughter of…so she said, “I’m not going to call the police. But my advice is that you stop doing the research.”
CO: Mhm.
NC: So anyways. I mean, I didn’t take it very seriously. But I started kind of thinking about it, what if she gave my name to the…
CO: No, no.
NC: Well, why do you think she had this approach? Because she was afraid? Because it was my mother’s house?
CO: But first she was very friendly, and later, when you talked about the research she was like that.
NC: Yes.
CO: Did you tell her anything about the questions?
NC: I said that I’m collecting stories about 1974, you know, what people were doing back then. I said, “if you want to talk about ’63, you can do this as well.”
CO: And you had a translator?
NC: No, I didn’t have a translator. And when I went to the house, I didn’t take with me my recording equipment.  Because I didn’t know if I was going to find them.  I didn’t have my camera and everything. I was just …
CO: Because, you know…
NC: She speaks English.
CO: Most Turkish Cypriots feel very insulted when Greek Cypriots start the troubles from ’74. If you said, first sentence, “can you tell me your experience with the Cyprus problem?” And later, a big issue, date, was ’74, ’63, or the others, it would be better. When they hear about ’74 first, because most probably their family is also a refugee, as it was a mixed village, too, and there were Turkish Cypriots who were going there also, anyway, so most of them are refugees, they feel insulted. That’s it. So, if you are going to have this interview with Turkish Cypriot, please tell about “Cyprus problem.” And later elaborate on it. If you start the first sentence, “’74,” you close the door.  Because there is a feeling also, from the Turkish Cypriots, that their, uh, their bitter experiences were not considered from the international community at all. And when this, 1974 happened, everybody was very furious about it.
NC: I see, I see. All right. Good to know.  Thank you very much.