ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Katramados John / Κατραμάδος Γιάννης
Sex (Φύλο): Male (Άνδρας)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): Before (Πριν το) 1960
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Other (Άλλο)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Other (Άλλη)
Community (Κοινότητα): Not Applicable (Δεν ισχύει)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Retired (Συνταξιούχος)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): Other (Άλλο)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): Not Applicable (Δεν ισχύει)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): Not Applicable (Δεν ισχύει)

Notes:
Researcher 1 (R) is Nikoletta Christodoulou
Researcher 2 (R2) is Lucy Avraamidou
Researcher 3 (R3) is Maria Arettines, the granddaughter of John Katramados. She was partly interviewer and partly interviewee.

Nikoletta Christodoulou: Mr. Katramados, we are collecting the stories of people, about the Cyprus problem, after 1960 up to 1974. Or even after that as well. We’re interested in finding out where you had been during that time. We know you were not in Cyprus. But you had some kind of experience because you were close to Cyprus. So what do you remember about that era?
J: You want me to talk about how I came to Cyprus first?
R: Yes, yes. Tell us, well – you were living in Greece, right?
J: Yes, I was living in Greece. During the German occupation, we took a sailboat and we went to the island of Chios in 1941. In March 1942, we went to Turkey on a small boat. And from there, we came to Cyprus, to Kyrenia. And after that they took us from Kyrenia, to a monastery. And we stayed there for 10 days to see if we had any guarantee – they [Turks]  called it a ‘guarantee’ at that time - if someone got sick. And after that, I went to Droushia.
R: In Paphos.
J: I stayed in Droushia for two years, I went to school there. And after that, because there is no high school there, I went to Ktima in Paphos. And I stayed there for a year and a half. At that time the Germans came very close to Alexandria in Africa. And they took us from there, all the refugees, and we went to another town called Mavrovouni. So in case of an emergency, all of us would be there so they could take us to Africa or someplace else. So, I stayed there until 1946. In 1946, I went back again to Greece. They took us back to Greece. I went to school there. In 1974, I was in the island of Chios when the Turks started bombing Cyprus. We tried to leave the island, because it is about less than 10 km from Turkey. So we left one night. There was no lighting anywhere on the island. And a ship came, with no lights at all. They took us and we went back again to Piraeus. And from there I went, I tried to go to the embassy, because they wouldn’t let anyone leave the country at that time. They gave guns to everybody, everybody was ready for war.
Researcher 2: Where did you want to go?
J: I wanted to return back again to the U.S. Because I came from U.S.
R: So you were living in the U.S.?
J: I was.
R: Oh, okay. So you were in Greece, and then many years later, you went back to Chios.
J: To Chios, yes, for vacation with my family.
Researcher 3: Who were you with?
J: I was with giagia [grandmother], George, and your [talking to Research 3] mother. All of us. And, that night, as I said, the lights were off completely. And we went to Piraeus. The boat took us to Piraeus. And we tried to go back to the United States, because I was living there.
R: Do you remember what the date was?
J: Yes, it was the 21st of July, if I remember right. That’s the day which, I think they [Turks] started here. Or maybe it was the 20th?
R: It was either the 15th or the 20th – not the 21st.
J: Maybe the 20th.
R: The 20th.
J: And then from there, when I went to the embassy, they said: ‘No you cannot leave the country for 48 hours. We are going to clear you.’ Because, I have the American citizenship, too. ‘We have to clear you, and we’ll let you know,’ they told me.  So I stayed there, but I could not go anywhere. I stayed at home all day. [laughs] Because, I was afraid that something was going to happen. And after a few days I went back to the embassy, and they said, ‘yes, you can leave.’ And we returned back again with my family to the United States.
R3: Did they say anything to George because he was…
J: George was very young. He was 7 years old.
R: George is your son.
J: My son, that’s right. He was 7 years old. But for me, because I was in the Greek army, they didn’t let me leave the country. That was the reason.
R: So have you heard about the situation before going on vacation to Chios?
J: Nothing. Nothing.
R: Did you know what was happening in that area?
J: No. Nobody was saying anything around that time. The only thing that we heard was that the Turks tried to invade Cyprus.
R2: What was the reason, do you remember?
J: They said that the Cypriots were not treating Turks who were living on the island, properly. That was the reason. That was the excuse at that time. But it was a political situation.
R2: Why do you say excuse?
J: It was an excuse, because I don’t think – when I was living in Cyprus, in a village next to Droushia, most of the people were Turks. Turkish Cypriots. But they were all living together with no problems at all. That’s why I say it was an excuse.
R: So in Droushia, back then, you were at the elementary school. Were there any Turkish Cypriots?
J: Yes, at the elementary school we were mixed, but the teaching language was Greek. For both villages, there was only one school.
R: Was this an issue for Turkish Cypriots, back then, having to attend a school where the language of instruction was Greek?
J: They did not have any issues, no!
R: There wasn’t any such issue of communication?
J: No. They all used to live together. With no problems at all. This is what I saw when I was here in Cyprus. But then, they [Turks] said the opposite. And I don’t believe that. [laughs]
R: So those days, when you had to go to the embassy – and eventually you were able to leave the country [Greece]. What was happening in Athens? The embassy was in Athens, right?
J: Yes, in Athens. They were ready to help the Cypriots with the army, the airforce, and the navy. But the politicians, I don’t know what exactly happened at that time, and they stopped it. Because most of them, they were getting orders from the Americans. And Kissinger was at that time, and Kissinger said ‘occupy Cyprus’ And then we, all the Greeks, went to Washington. I went there, with Greek flags and everything. And we have a big – they call pano – that’s, a sign, which is against Kissinger. But nothing happened.
R2: Were there any flags of Cyprus?
J: No, the Greek flag. Not Cyprus, but the flag of Greece. We went there as Greeks against Kissinger. Because he gave the okay for the invasion. If I remember correctly, 1967, when Johnson was the president of the United States, the Turks tried again to do the same thing. And at that time Johnson said ‘no, don’t do anything’. But when the government changed, and Kissinger was the …how do we call that, the Minister of Foreign…
R2: External Affairs.
J: Yes, external affairs. He gave the okay to bomb Cyprus and occupy whatever they could.
R: Was Kissinger….um….
J: His wife was Turkish.
R: His wife was Turkish, oh ok. I didn’t know that.
J: Yes. Maria didn’t know either. His mind was like ‘I want this, and I want to get it’. That’s it. Period. He was a good politician, because during the Vietnam war, he would negotiate to stop the war in Vietnam. Kissinger. That’s why they gave him such as a high position.
R3: What was Greece like under the junta?
J: When Greece was under the junta, I think the junta is the one, which created the problem with whatever Cyprus has today. According to the newspapers, whatever we read. And when I was in school, in Pireaus, I remember Makarios came to our school in 1948.
R3: In Pireaus?
J: In Pireaus. And he came to our class, and he made a speech. About freedom. And he shook hands with every student before he left. That I remember clearly because he came to our amphitheater, and we went down and he made the speech. That was in 1948.
R: 1948.
R3: Freedom…
J: Freedom of Cyprus because those years, Cyprus was under a colony of the English. That’s why he was going around.
R: So you said that was the first part of your story.
J: That’s, in general. If you like details, it’s when I went to Pireaus, I sailed, I went to America, and then I stayed in America. I get married in Greece, I went back to America. [laughs] That was details. If you like to know, I can tell you [laughs]. Whatever you like.
R2: Can we just go back for a second to – so, you were in Chios when you heard that the Turkey…
J: When the Turkey invaded Cyprus.
R2: What were the people at the time…
J: The people…
R2: What did you think? Did you think it was something that was going to last for a long time?
J: At that time, the radio and everything was telling people that they [Turks] were going to get to Chios, and that in case the Turks come over, we have to fight against them like they fight here.
R2: So they were thinking maybe Turkey would invade…
J: Yes, they were afraid. That’s why, there were no lights, and the ship came with no lights. Inside the harbor it was very dangerous, but the ships came in. I tell you, with flashlights [laughs]. It was a very bad situation at that time, all over. And I had a few friends, who were in the airforce. And they had people inside certain planes, trying to send army here. And then something happened, I don’t know, they stoped it. They never sent it.
R: What about your family? So, it was you, your wife.
J: We were on vacation. Myself, my wife, my daughter, her mother, and my son.
R: You were all together at all points? At all times, right?
R2: Were you living with other people, with other family members?
J: Yes, we were living with my brother in law, his wife, and he has a son and a daughter. And, then we were sharing two houses in Chios.
R3: Were people scared?
J: They were scared. That’s why, whatever guns they had on the island, shotguns, whatever they had, they gave them to people. Like national guard. And they went down and they watched the waterfront. Because they were afraid that the Turks were possibly going to invade Chios or the islands of Greece.
R3: Can you maybe talk a little more about the general feeling of being in a country under the junta during that time?
J: The junta was difficult. Because the junta, a government in which they were doing whatever they wanted to do. They were doing things. They would not ask; they did not have any politicians at that time. They put all the politicians in jail. It was an army; most of them were from the army.
R: And what do you think now about the situation?
J: The situation was very bad, and I’m very surprised why the European countries, didn’t do anything to take the Turks, especially the army, off Cyprus. They have to do something someday. They were talking but nothing happened. And that’s very bad.
R: You think it’s the European Union that should do this, it’s not the Americans?
J: The American army, I don’t think they are going to be involved in this situation. Only the European Union. And that’s why the Turks, if they don’t give freedom to the entire island, to be one island again, not in two pieces, they are not going to be in the European Union.
R: You said you were a refugee too.
J: I was a refugee in Cyprus. From 1942 up to ’46. They called us refugees, but the government sent us here.
R: But you don’t have the status of refugee they were only calling you refugees?
J: They called us refugees.
R: You didn’t have the status of refugee, receiving some kind of…help, or….
J: Yes, they supported us. Since we came to Cyprus, they gave us money. So we could buy whatever we needed. And I went to school.
R: Who were ‘they’?
J: The Greek government I think with the English people. And if you were over 17 years old, you had to go to the army. If you were under 17, you had to go to school. I was under 17, so I went to school. [laughs]
R: Do you have any stories from Droushia, from when you were living there?
J: Yes, the people who used to live there were very polite. They were extremely friendly when we went there. They tried to help us as much as they could.
R2: Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots?
J:  Cypriots.
R2: Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots?
J: Greek Cypriots, because Drousia, I suppose it was about 95% Greek Cypriots. At that time. I don’t know, maybe now, it is 100% Greek Cypriots. But at that time it was about 95%.
R: So, you remember that they were polite and….
J: Very polite and friendly. And their hospitality was unbelievable.
R: What else? What do you remember about their hospitality?
J: Every morning, when they would come from the fields, they were giving us tomatoes, whatever vegetables they had from their fields, they would leave it at the front of our door. And they used to knock the door so we would take them.
R3: Because they knew you were coming as refugees.
J: Yes, refugees.
R2: What else? Other examples?
J: From the people or whatever I did there?
R2: Both. Start with the people, and please share other examples that show their…
J: Their hospitality. In the summertime, they used to come to my house and they took me with the donkey – they had donkeys there – and we used to go to the fields to get grapes, and I was carrying them back home to the village, unloaded, and then I was going back and forth, trying to help them out. At the end, they gave us whatever wine they would make or whatever [laughs]. I remember one time, I made a kite. And I was pulling the kite, it was a little bit windy. And I was pulling the kite out. After a few hours, all the army, the English army, around the village came over. So they thought it was a parachute coming to the village. Because the kite was looking like a parachute. And they came to the village, and I went to the – they call him…ummm?
R: Muktaris.
J: Muktaris! That’s right And I went and I spoke to him – I said, ‘if they are looking for the parachute, please know that it just me out there with a kite’. The tail of the kite looks like a man. The shape of the kite was round. It’s exactly like a parachute. So the sergeant who was in charge at the time said ‘bring it over’. So I went to the house and I brought it over. And I said this is what I did, and it was a big one. And from Polis, looking from there, they thought it was a parachuter. So they took it from me and they said, ‘don’t do that again.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to do it,’ that’s one of the stories [laughs].
R: These were the British, you said, who …
J: British, yes. British soldiers, they came. Because it was occupied by British. And I remember something else at that time. The British soldiers, they came and they took all the animals, the cows, from the people of Drousia. If you had more than two cows, they took it for the army. And they would leave only two, so they could go to the fields for the next year.  And also, everything I remember was with ration. If they had more vegetables, not only vegetables, crops – whatever they had, they took it and they would leave only so much for the people to live with. I remember that.
R: That was something regular? It was happening regularly?
J: Ratio.
R: Or was it like once in a while?
J: I was there two years and it happened both years. Once a year or every six months they would come there.
R: So, yes, that’s another interesting thing, I had never even thought about this. How did you experience life with British colonizers?
J: The colony… It was very hard for me to see these things. You know…they come over to your village and take your animals. There they don’t have any horses, because they planned to take horses, but they don’t have any horses. They have only donkeys to carry things back and forth.
R: So British were living with you?
J: No. They were in Polis. The British were living in Polis, not in Drousia. They were in Polis, which is about ½ an hour away from Droushia, by car.
R: How obvious was their presence there? They were controlling you?
J: No, they didn’t bother us. They didn’t bother the people there. Only when they came to take their animals and the crops, whatever they had.
R3: They took crops as well?
J: Yes, they did. And they leave you some, like a ratio. You know, “so many bushels we’re going to leave you, and we’re going to take the rest.”
R: But no payment, though. They were not actually buying…
J: I don’t think they paid the people. Maybe they gave some peanuts. Something, very small amount.
R: And do you remember people living in Drousia complaining about…besides from what you were experiencing?
J: Yes, they did.
R: What would you hear from people?
J: Oh, they were complaining because they took their animals. And they didn’t want to do that. They liked to have their animals so they could have the meat, they could use in the fields so they could use only 2 cows, whatever they had, they can use 4. Everything was different.
R: What about protests?
J: They didn’t have any protests.
R3: When you heard Makarios speak, can you tell us more about that?
J: Yeah, Makarios said freedom from the English colony. This was what he was saying in all his speeches. It was very interesting that he was going, I think, in every school. He came to our school too.
R: Did you know about the situation, or you heard about it from Makarios?
J: No, no. I knew about it. I knew about it because I used to live here. And I knew about the English people.
R: Okay, and it was after that.
J: It was after that. 1948. That means it was 2 years after Makarios came to speak to us.
R: So you haven’t been in Cyprus for 63 years?
J: Cyprus? From 1946 up to Friday, which was the-
R3: Wednesday.
J: Wednesday. Was the 11th of 2011 [laughs] So 65 years to Cyprus, 68 to Drousia.
R: So do you think the situation now is much different than how it used to be? Not how the landscape is, or the development…but that Cyprus is still under some kind of occupation.
J: Yes, all the rich areas, the Turks I think they have it. Ground-wise, not money-wise. [laughs] Because when I came, I came to Kyrenia. Kyrenia was a beautiful town and all outside Kyrenia was beautiful. And now they have it. Morfou, same thing. But they occupy all that land. The rich grounds are occupied by Turks. This is my opinion, I don’t know if I’m right or wrong.
R: So can you compare the two eras in which you visited and experienced Cyprus? Then and now.
J: The people are the same, friendly as they used to be. Because when we went to Droushia it was exactly the same. Very polite, and the hospitality was the same. We went to kafenio with Maria, we went to a restaurant, we ate there. Very friendly. Extremely friendly, like the old days.
R2: The same restaurant that we went to?
R3: We went to a restaurant in Drousia?
R2: Yeah, didn’t we stay in Drousia? Where did we stay when we went to Akamas?
R3: That was Kritou Terra.
R2: Oh, okay.
R3: No, not that one [laughs]
R2: It was close.
R3: Very close to Drousia.
R: Did you meet anyone familiar? Did you see anyone?
J: No, because the person that I used to know, he died last year. He was a doctor there, and he died last year. This is what people there told me. And all the other people, they’re younger than me so…but they gave us a book, and I found my teacher. I found most of it. We passed with Maria by the house we used to stay. And I went to the blacksmith place. It was outside of the restaurant where we ate.
R2: Still there?
J: Still there, but there’s no use. Only the building. Very good memories. I mean, in Droushia when I stayed.
R2: Maybe Maria wants to add something to all these stories. I mean, as you were growing up, did you hear about these kinds of stories?
R3: Well, I remember my mom telling me that in 1974, when she was in Chios –
J: She wanted to go to the army. Nurse.
R3: That’s not what she told me. [laughs] She told me she was very scared, and everyone was very scared. She told me they were trying to draft her brother. But he was 7 years old, so.
J: No, me.
R3: Okay, and growing up, I remember every year we would go to the independence day parade, the Greek independence day parade in New York City. And everyone from the Greek diaspora in New York would go. And, it’d be a big parade, there would be floats from every island. So you know, you’d see the Crete island, little kids waving flags, everyone’s happy. And there’d be Chios island, and of course, we’d be very excited because that’s where our family is from.
R2: People were grouped together according to their…
R3: You could watch it from the sidelines, which is what we would do.  Or you could participate in it, on a float, from your church, or your community center from the island that you’re from. They had a Chios community center in Queens. And I remember specifically, this always left such a strong impression on me. Whenever the Cyprus float came down [laughs], there was a banner of…so normally, you know, it’s kids waving flags, everyone’s happy, happy, happy, dressed in traditional clothing. And then when the Cyprus float came…totally different-
R2: In what sense?
R3: There’s a huge map of Cyprus covered in blood. [everyone laughs] Blood dripping down the island.
J: Comes from North to South.
R3: Yes – you see the stickers here everywhere. But just imagine that blown up in New York City on this float with all these little kids. [unclear] You know, there’s definitely a difference I felt – you know, there’s a difference between the experience where my family came from, and then Cypriot experience.
R2: What were you thinking about…
R3: I was thinking, wow, that’s really intense. So Greeks to remember something and hold onto it like that. And I also didn’t fully understand the political context of what was happening. And it wasn’t really until I became friends with Pani, someone who is from Cyprus, in New York, that I gained a lot more insight into…her family is very bitter about what happened to them. They are close family friends.
R2: And they are refugees, they moved?
R3: Yes.
R2: To New York after?
R3: Some of them stayed in the South. So some of them live in Athienou now. And then others live in New York. And she lives in New York, that’s where I met her.
R2: What kind of stories did they tell you?
R3: He can probably speak better to that.
J: The story is that they don’t like the Turks at all. They say very bad words against the Turks.
R2: Did they share any specific personal stories about 1974, something that had happened to them?
J: No, because when I was talking to her mother, at that time, she was very young. She doesn’t remember exactly what was happening in those days.
R3: Pani would speak very strongly, although she is around my age, she would speak very strongly of how they took her land, her family’s home, left them with nothing. And they were forced to flee to the South with nothing. I mean that was always the narrative I would hear from her. “We came with nothing, they took everything away from us.” And I had another Cypriot friend who told me [mumbles], “my mother was killed in 1974, my grandmother was killed in 1974.” So I didn’t have a clear idea exactly of what the nuances were of what was happening, but I understood it was really terrible, a lot of people were negatively affected by it. And I always felt sympathy.
R: Maybe we should talk to her.
R3: Pani? She’s going to come to Cyprus this summer. June, July, and August. I can put her in touch with you guys.
R2: Okay.
R3: She’s young – a couple years younger than me. But it’d be interesting, someone who grew up in America.
R: Is this the family you visited in Athienou recently?
J: No, we plan to go on Monday. I promised I’m going to see the parents and the sister.
R2: Is that, this girl?
R3: Her family.
J: Elena, her family.
R2: Okay.
J: Before I left New York I promised I am going to see.
[Researcher 1 leaves, break in interview]
R2: Okay, should we start with Maria?
J: Whatever you like.
R2: Let’s start with you. What do you think of the future? Do you think the problem is going to be solved?
J: I think, but I don’t think it’s going to be like the old days. It’s going to be solved. But the way the Turks think about it … the Turks in Turkey, not in Cyprus…. I don’t think they’re going to let it be the same way as it was before ’74.
R2: What kind of a solution do you envision?
J: They want to have a mixed government, because…I think 2/3 to be Greek, and 1/3 to be Turks. So they don’t have any more complaints.
R2: That’s based on the population?
J: The population. And so they stop complaining about the Greek Cypriots. That they don’t treat properly Turkish Cypriots.
R2: And what do you think is going to happen to the people who came from Turkey the past few years?
J: That’s terrible, because I know they left all the criminals from Turkey and they brought them in Kyrenia and the area which was occupied. The same thing they did years ago in 1922. The Turks in Embros, was an island, a Greek island. And they took all the people from there, from the jails, and they put them in the island. And they chased every Greek out.
R2: So you think these people should be sent back?
J: Should be sent back. This is my opinion, they should go back.
R2: Do you think that people could live with each other? Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots?
J: Yes, my opinion is yes because they used to live before 1974. And I witnessed this, it’s not like what I heard from other people. I was there in 1946. ’42-’46, 4 years. And they lived all together. In high school, when I was … we had 30, maybe 10% Turks, Cypriot Turks. In the same class.
R2: But, I mean, don’t you think that would require some kind of process of not only forgiving, but also forgetting? About what has happened in order to be able to …
J: Depends, depends. Forgiving and forgetting, yes. But if you lost your brother, or if you lost your mother, it’s very difficult to forgive. The property, I don’t mean about the property. But the lives which they are lost. During that war, I don’t think it was fair. And still they are looking for people that are missing, and they don’t know what happened to them.
R2: That’s why most are kind of skeptical…some are really-
J: You see the generation now, they changed, most of the old people died, and the young people think differently. And it’s going to be some change. But, not 100%.
R2: Or they don’t think at all.
J: They do, they will. I don’t think…their memory is going to be there. But not the hate.  It’s going to be different.
R2: Okay. So you’re hopeful?
J: I hope for the future. I hope next time, if I’m alive, to come again to Cyprus to see everybody living together like the old days with no problems.
R2: Me too. How many years do you think that will take?
J: It’s going to take … depends on the European Union. If Turkey likes to go to the European Union, to be a member, it has to solve this problem first. And this is, they try now to do something. As far as I know, the government of Cyprus on the Turkish side and the government of Cyprus on the Greek side, before the new election, which they had a few years back, everything was smooth. Now I think things changed again against the…
R3: Reunification.
J: Reunification, yes. With the new government. But as I mentioned to you, I was in Singapore, and I compare Cyprus now, clean and everything – on the Greek side, of course – is almost the same. 100%. Which is the top in the world.
R2: That’s a huge compliment.
J: It is.
R2: Just out of curiosity, do you…are you…reading, or are you aware of the recent developments? When you are in America, is there any source of information…
J: Whatever I can listen from the Greek radio. That’s the only thing, yes. Because the Americans don’t say absolutely anything.
R2: And newspapers? Greek newspapers?
J: I tell you the truth, the Greek newspaper is difficult to get it. The American newspapers don’t write about Cyprus. Only if some big event happens, but otherwise, no.
R2: Are there any information seminars at the church or any other centers?
J: No, only the AHEPA, but I am not a member of AHEPA. I have friends who are members of AHEPA and they try to solve the problem. Cyprus. But I am not a member.
R2: What’s that?
J: AHEPA, it’s the Greek American Association. Which they have very – it’s powerful. Political. As I said, we went there, we were thousands of people, we had buses. In 1974, at the end of ’74. We went to Washington from New York. They came from all over the United States to protest.
R2: Do they do something every year, every July?
J: They do once in a while, but not every year.
R3: I went to one once. When I was younger, in New York City, I went to a protest. But it was a bunch of old Greek people mostly. [laughs] Not really as many young people involved or concerned.
R2: Do you remember what kind of posters or signs they were focusing on? Greek flags or Cypriot flags?
R3: Greek flags. It was super Greek nationalist. I was just curious, I wanted to go and see what it was going to be like. And it was very Greek nationalist, but in a way that really wasn’t … I’ll talk more about that when it’s my turn to talk.
R2: I don’t have any other questions, unless you have something that you want to say.
J: No, I wish for it someday to be like the Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots living together, living as before 1974. It’s going to be a little bit difficult, but let’s hope that someday it’s going to happen. Very soon.
R2: Thank you. Thanks a lot. Maria, can you say a bit more about what you were expecting. I mean, having heard these stories from your family and friends or having participated in some of the protests. What kind of things you were expecting to find in Cyprus, and if you found them or not.
R3: Well, that’s a really interesting question. I think actually, because, Papou – you lived in Cyprus when it was a British colony, a lot of what I heard was British, British, British. So, what I was anticipating, although I knew about the conflict, I was also really anticipating this anxiety over the British presence here. Just ‘cause I hear him say stories, like what he was saying before.
J: Drousia, taking the crops.
R3: Taking the crops, it made me angry to think about ….
J: It was during the war, that’s why they did it that way.
R3: Yeah, but …. a colony’s a colony.
J: A colony’s a colony.
R3: It still angered me to think of… So I came here, and I still sometimes get upset when I see a lot of British people. Because even though Cyprus isn’t a colony anymore, they own such a huge portion of the island as military bases, they own so much property. And if you look in the North, a lot of the property that belonged to Greek Cypriots – I know there was some legal maneuvering that happened to correct this – but a lot of the property that was owned by Greek Cypriots was being bought, or sold to British.
J: Yeah, but they stopped that now, Maria, because they went to Hague and they say it’s illegal, whatever they’re doing.
R3: Yeah.
J: And they stopped it. But of course, whatever damage was done is there.
R3: Yeah.
R2: Yeah, and a lot of it is gone already.
R3: So, I feel a lot of resentment towards that. And I’m teaching at a British school in the North. And I’ve witnessed that dynamic play out firsthand.
R2: Can you talk a bit about that?
R3: God, I can’t believe this is going to be on record. I hope no one listens to this for 20 years and it doesn’t matter anymore [laughs].
R2: Say some things about the population, or maybe the politics of the school if you’re aware of some.
R3: Well this is just my observation as someone who has a background in sociology, and as something I’m interested in - something I pay attention to, is the way people treat other people and interact with them. You don’t have to be sensitive to that to see at this particular school, British are treated…they get paid 3 times, 4 times the salary, they mostly only speak English. A lot of the students speak only Turkish. There are Turkish or Turkish Cypriot aides for almost every classroom, who do most of the translating, a lot of the work…
R2: They’re aides.
R3: They’re assistants. And getting paid such a small portion of what the teachers get paid. For me to witness that…it feels like it’s a colony in the school. [laughs] And that’s been frustrating. And also, the people who have been the most warm with me, and opened up the most with me, are Turkish or Turkish Cypriot.
R2: Why do you think this? Is it because you are who you are?
R3: No, I think I’ve been very friendly and kind and outgoing – I think it has something to do with being Greek, in all honesty. I hate to say it, and I wish it wasn’t the case. And I’m not saying it just to say it. I really believe based on some comments people have made and some interactions…in my experience, there’s been a lot of anti-Greek sentiment coming from the British community that’s living in the North. If you look at the history of Cyprus, the Greek community was largely responsible for kicking the British out. And the comments I’ve heard made, they are reflecting on that. So it was a long time ago, but I guess some are still holding onto that now.  This one teacher I’m thinking of, she referred to Greeks as terrorists and all this…so it’s been very interesting to witness that. And also to witness being treated so kindly by the Turkish and Turkish Cypriots, too. That’s been huge for me here, in Cyprus, in general. I think everyone has their own side to the story. Some people will say, “oh, the Turks did this, the Turks did that.” But there’s just as many stories, “oh, the Greeks did this, the Greeks did that.” And I think there were terrible things happening from both communities. If we’re looking at 1974, the junta came first. And then the Turkish army came. And that was terrible, but if you look in the ‘60s, what was happening to the Turkish Cypriot communities – their homes were being burnt down. I have Turkish Cypriot friends whose family members disappeared too, during 1974. It’s not like only one community was the victim and the other one wasn’t. And I think that’s what being here has changed in my perspective.
R2: You mean, before coming here, you were thinking that the Greek Cypriots were the victims.
R3: I think that’s the narrative I heard most. But I was also very critical of that, I’m so used to hearing, “oh, the Turks this, the Turks that.” And I just, kind of became dismissive of it at a certain point….Greeks aren’t always the victims, they’ve done terrible things, too. Being here has made me see, actually, it’s not a simple thing. There were good things and atrocities happening on both sides.
J: Not on the same percentage, Maria. I don’t think it was the same percentage.
R2: You mean a greater percentage of Greek Cypriots were victimized.
J: Victimized, yes. More Greek Cypriots were victimized.
R3: But Pappou, do you know what happened in 1963 here? Are you familiar with what happened in 1963?
J: ’63….no. But I know ’67, they tried again the same thing, they tried to do what they did in ’74. And the American government stopped them at the time. They tried to solve the problem between those communities. And I don’t think it was exactly the same.
R3: I think actually, what I’ve heard – this is what has been interesting to me. To hear different perspectives being here. I was critical of it, but I didn’t have any basis for being critical of the whole “Turks are terrible, Turks are terrible,” – I was just like, “oh, I’m so sick of it.” And then I came here, and I heard people say, “I don’t care if they’re Turkish, I don’t care if they’re Turkish Cypriot, I don’t care how long they’ve been here for…we only want Greeks.” And that, to me, is terrible.
R2: You’ve heard Greek Cypriots…
R3: From Greek Cypriots.
J: Maybe it’s because they are victims of the war during the ’74. That’s why they say that.
R3: Yeah, you know. I just don’t think anything is so simple though. And I don’t think that – why are you smiling? [laughs]
R2: I like this interaction. [everyone laughs] The two of you.
R3: I think I learned a lot about the suffering of the Greek Cypriot community experienced here, and realized it was very real and terrible – and awful that it happened. But I never heard – when Greek Cypriots spoke about the Cyprus problem – I never once heard any of them say anything about 1963. Or the years before, when Turkish Cypriot villages were burnt down. Not just one home, one family against the other. An entire village. And that was because of their ethnic identity, their religious background – whatever distinguished them from Greeks. And I didn’t even know that happened until I came here.
J: I tell you the truth, I never heard about this. Just the first time I hear 1963. The only thing I know is ’67. They tried again the same situation, whatever they did in ’74.
R3: That’s what I mean. It’s so easy to get stuck in one narrative, one way of thinking.
J: I don’t know Maria, I mentioned to you before I was living in one village, most of them were Greek Cypriots, the other village Turkish. And they lived together with no nationality, with no problems at all.
R2: What language did they use to communicate?
J: Greek.
R2: Okay, so the Turkish Cypriots were speaking Greek.
J: And when I went to the high school, we have more Turks in our class. And still, no problems at all.
R3: Were they seen – sorry, can I ask questions too? [laughs] Were they seen as Turks, were they seen as Cypriots, how was that community perceived by the Greek community?
J: With not any difference.
R3: Not any difference, they were just other people who lived in the next village.
J: That’s right.
R3: That’s….crazy. Because now there’s such a huge emphasis on-
J: Yes, huge emphasis now because of whatever happened.
R2: How about things like religious holidays, or … they would come up…
J: The holidays, they don’t bother each other at that time. They did not.
R2: Everyone would celebrate together?
J: Yeah, celebrate. I remember only one case, March 25th, that’s the independence day of Greece from Turks. I was in high school at that time and I saw a few Greeks – let’s say 5 or 10 – they started fighting with the Turk young kids. But they were kids, they were 12, 13 years old, 14 years old. They were not grown ups. Maybe one had said something against the other, and they started fighting. That’s all I saw in the years I was here for 4 years in Cyprus. That was only one time. The 25th of March.
R2: Maria, I have another question. I know you live in the South, but you have many friends from both sides. So I was wondering if you notice any differences in the way the two communities think about the problem, or think of the future.
R3: Well, definitely. First, I think I hang out with a certain group of people, so it’s definitely not indicative of –
R2: For both sides.
R3: Yeah. It’s not indicative probably of how most Cypriots think. Cause I hang out with more open-minded people, probably, compared to the rest of Cyprus. But I even noticed, in that more open-minded community, Turkish Cypriots are way more open-armed to the Greek Cypriot community – than the Greek Cypriot community is to the Turkish Cypriot community. All of my Turkish Cypriot friends are – I want to learn Greek, my family is from here, my grandparents speak Greek, I love the South, I come here all the time – that’s pretty much how most of my Turkish Cypriot friends are.
R2: Do you know any refugees?
R3: Yeah, they’re from the South, they had to go to the North. And they moved to Morfou.
R2: Really? Do they have strong feelings about…
R3: Yes, they want Turkey out more than any Greek Cypriot I’ve ever met. Which was also surprising for me to learn.
J: To see what?
R3: To see that Turkish Cypriots …the people I’ve met….want Turkey out more than any Greek Cypriot …. and I remember when I first came here, I referred to the Turkish Cypriot community as Turkish. And my Turkish Cypriot friends freaked out….they said, “We’re not Turkish…we’re Turkish Cypriot! Get it right.” And I learned quickly the difference [laughs] between the two. And also, with that, the political situation here. Yeah, but…really anti-Turkey, pro unification of Cyprus, open arms to the Greek Cypriot community.
R2: Did they share any experiences they had with Greek Cypriots? Do they feel that we’re feeling the same way? Or we’re as friendly towards them as they are towards us.
R3: One of my friends does a lot of bicommunal work, so he meets a lot of Greek Cypriots all the time. Almost all his friends are Greek Cypriot probably [laughs]. Another friend, her family speaks Greek. Her father, grandparents…they all speak Greek….she loves Greek people [laughs]. I’ve only heard positive things. Although, at the same time, her grandmother went missing in 1974.
R2: Turkish Cypriot.
R3: Yeah.
R2: Do you have any idea about what they think of the future?
R3: Well one of them we’re going to interview next week. [laughs]
R2: Do you have a sense that they’re more positive or more hopeful?
R3: They want reunification more than most Greek Cypriots I met. I think they’re the ones that are suffering – after living here awhile, from what I’ve seen, which is only one perspective – it seems that Turkish Cypriots are really suffering a lot, a lot are being almost pushed out of Cyprus. They’re not embraced by the Greek Cypriot community because they’re Turkish Cypriot…and Turkey, from what friends have explained to me and what I have seen, used them as pawns for power in Cyprus. And not for their general well being, because if they came for their general well being like they said in 1974, there wouldn’t be so many Turkish Cypriots without jobs, having to leave Cyprus. So, I think they want unification the most, because they’re suffering economically more than Greek Cypriots are.
J: Economically yes.
R3: And I think they want the benefits, too, you know. I mean, they get the benefits of having EU citizenship for Turkish Cypriots. But, you know – I think it would probably strengthen their access to economic resources if the island…and also, there’s not as much resentment built up.
R2: Yeah, I agree. Okay. I don’t have any questions. If there’s anything else that you want to share, or…just any thoughts or comments.
J: Comments? My wish is that Cyprus is united again. That’s my wish. Soon.
R2: And, for you to be here, too.
J: Yes. And I will come back again [laughs]
R3: If I get my PhD here.
R2: You’ll run for president. [laughs] Okay perfect, thank you so much.