ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

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Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Azgin Fatma / Αζγκίν Φατμά
Sex (Φύλο): Female (Γυναίκα)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): Before (Πριν το) 1960
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Nicosia (Λευκωσία)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Private Employee (Ιδιωτικός Υπάλληλος)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): No (Όχι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Nikoletta Christodoulou: Alright, Fatma, this is what I explained before…I’m collecting stories about people what they know about 1960 or before that through 1974. That era that we now call, because of that era we have the Cyprus problem. So if you can share with me any interesting stories you may have experienced, or maybe 1950 you said. I would like to hear about that experience.
Fatma Azgin: Actually I was born in 1974
NC: You were born in 1974? Oh, okay.
FA: 1947 [Laughs]  So I lived in a bicommunal country or one country before the problems started in ’63. Of course we were child so we were not so much conscious. But I remember crossing to the Ledra Street especially at nights to make shop.  Window-
NC: Window shopping.
FA: Window shopping. And my father used to take me to the children’s garden, you know, Metaxas place, near Metaxas square.  There was a very beautiful garden back there and he was taking me. And after  we are having to wait in Nicosia, I remember our cart, ice cream, but it was a Turkish man Ledra Street – Medebe [2:!6] – they were very famous, they were doing  sweets and so forth, and they were very famous, 3, 4 brothers, Bedouin family, and always I have to [laughs] take some ice cream before we leave. And also I was the youngest child from 4 and of course after, it became more economically…
NC: Difficult
FA: No, good standards. So they were always buying me shoes and other shops, because [mumbles] so very chic dresses from the other side [3:08] and we used to go, I can say it, to the south, because my father was an elementary school teacher, he always used to travel in the mixed villages so we were going there together. We didn’t have car but we have our friends so…then, when I was in the secondary school, of course before that I have to mention there was some disturbance with child, during ‘50s it started with EOKA movement. And because of EOKA there was a Turkish counterpart here. And there was kind of fighting and also fighting towards the British people. So I remember when I was a child in our village there was a Greek Cypriot neighbor, but he left because he was afraid. And in time because of this harassment between EOKA and Vocom they used to call it [4:19] our underground organization.
NC: Undercover organization or underground?
FA: No, underground. Like EOKA, counterpart. So they left our street and we were not too far from our [unclear] [4:54] it means near Famagusta Gate [unclear] and Tartagala you know.  So Nicosia was divided in 50, you know. Most people think, like other countries, other towns, Nicosia divided after 1974, but Nicosia was divided before.
NC: Okay, I didn’t know this.
FA: Yes, this is very important. Nobody force this, but the people … there were too many people in the center of the old city and it used to be every year at Panayiri and Aymukor church, it was in the center of Turkish part in the old city. And we used to go there, and suddenly they evacuated the houses and left, before ’63 and ’74. So I lived in that condition. I remember when we were child, we were playing, suddenly we heard Cyprus Republic was established. We were out and dancing,
NC: So it was good for you, you thought that –
FA: Yes, it was good for us but it was welcomed by our parents, our neighbors, because we were not politic things what was going on, but we were happy. After ’60 of course, when you say established, everything was okay, my father was teacher, he had many Greek students. My mother and father used to know Greek because they were traveling.
NC: They were teaching …it was Greek school?
FA: No, both. They were teaching in Turkish but because in old times the teachers were living in villages, so in mixed villages my father used to go to Greek coffee shop and Turkish coffee shop and reading them newspapers. And write them anything used to be written. So, helping them. A teacher was like everything of times, these years. So, for example, Matiatis, was something I always remember because because when I was born they have to go to this village …
NC: Ayia Vavara now.
FA: Okay, Ayia Vavara. And I was baby because I was born in summer, but in September they took me to Matiatis, all the family and 5 years we stayed there. And they had very nice days in Matiatis. And there was Antoulla, a young girl, who was looking after me, a neighbor. And she was talking in Turkish also. Because Cyprus was bilingual that time. Because in which village Greek Cypriot majority Turkish Cypriots learn Greek. But Matiatis majority was Turkish Cypriot so Greek Cypriots learn Turkish, it was visa versa.  And after all these things I live with Antoulla, of course after many years when the gates open in 2003, first thing I went to see Matiatis, Antoulla. And I was so appreciated that she was alive and in a good condition. And we met there [laughs]…
NC: It was in 2000-
FA: 3. After the gates open.
NC: Before that you never…
FA: Few times, after they left in ’63 time, before ’74, of course more than  30 years pass before I met her again.
NC: Did you recognize her, did she recognize you?
FA: No, I introduce myself of course. But I could not find her, or she wouldn’t be in a good condition. So I was so lucky that she was smart, dressed well, white hair very nice lady. And I see going by my olives. Cause in our house, the best olives they used to say from Matiatis. Now we go factories in Alionda, so every year we go there, we buy our olive oil and olives – black olives [laughs].
NC: That’s where I take my grandmother as well to the factory there.
FA: So, after ’63, when the ’63 crashes started, I was in the secondary school. And of course they gave us one year off, so…
NC: Why?
FA: There were shooting near our house, it start there and we were afraid…
NC: So for 1 year you didn’t go to school?
FA: No, no. I learn wool knitting and other things we were spending time. And then some villagers came to north of course, I don’t know why they closed the school, and then we continue. We started again in a new situation. We could not come to this part but we could travel to Limassol, Larnaca…living together still that time. Of course there was shooting still, some problems.  Still, it was like that.  So my brother was in Limassol, 2 brothers actually. We used to travel to visit them there.
NC: Do you know what happened, did you ask what was going on?
FA: Yes, I had some young brothers, he said we will save our…he took some steel thing in the garden, iron thing, like a stake, you know, wanted to go struggle, but it was not like that. It didn’t continue long time. But we heard in some villages there were tragic things you know. The Turkish Cypriots left their villages, most of the Greek Cypriots were not aware that Turkish Cypriots left their homes, they were always saying in ’74 they lost their houses, but since I was in the conflict resolution group in 1990’s, 10 years I was there working, and people start to know that in ’63 there was similar story for Turkish Cypriots.  Then if course in ’65 I went to university.
NC: That was in Turkey?
FA: Yes, Istanbul. And I came back in ’72, opened a pharmacy in the old city, and I start to make trade with the Greek Cypriot wholesalers. Because all the importers of medicine were Greek Cypriots. So I start to make friends, I didn’t have any Greek Cypriot friends until that time. And I was, that time it was very famous Mary Kwant makeup things and dresses. So I went to the Greek Cypriot agents there, and he gave me sub agency on the Turkish side.  Also, there was beautician from Mary Kwant who used to come from London every 3 months.
NC: What was the name again?
FA: Mary Kwant, she was the founder of the mini skirt. British one. In the ‘60s, the beginning of the mini skirt.  That time it was very avant garde, and I was going there, we make friends. Not too much but especially with the pharmaceutical agency owners or distributors so I was crossing…most of them was very close to Turkish side, near Ledra Street. So I was crossing and coming. And when they used to come to my pharmacy for demonstration, etc. I was taking a special permission for them, so it was like that.
NC: So the situation was…
FA: I told you that Greek Cypriots couldn’t come freely to our side, but we….yes. So…
NC: But that was just for Nicosia or…
FA: Yes. Because I told you that it was divided. But I remember that Greek Cypriots couldn’t cross freely from Kyrenia to Nicosia, there was an escort of United Nations.
NC: In 197-
FA: After ‘60s, until ’74. Okay? And then I remember before 15 of July was Monday. And on Sunday we went with a group of friends to Troodos mountains. We made barbeque. I love Troodos mountains. We were there, I was a pharmacist, all my friends’ groups we were there.  And on Monday when I came to pharmacy, first when I enter, I had a nice bird in a cage, I saw that it was broken. It was a disaster. And I was the 3rd bird, I left the window open on the 2nd floor and maybe a cat came, it was a message that bad thing will happen. And afterwards I start hearing these sirens, but we are used to hearing these things. Soldiers doing their…we say, I don’t know the English word….they study, make practice.
NC: Oh, they were just practicing like…
FA: Sometimes soldiers in both sides make this.
NC: Like military exercises.
FA: Yes, yes. So, at the end, this was continuing, I was going and asking to the neighbors, why is this going on and they say they are exercising. And then I put on the radio and they say Makarios is on the cross. Ah. I remember we had 3 sisters from Limidi area, and of course Bektas made a statement, [18:37] he said everybody will stay in the north who came from the villages and other parts. So they stayed with us and there was an expectation that time I was very aware of politics. [laughs] I was a university student. No, graduate actually, before I opened in ’72. So we were listening BBC, we were listening, was going to London, they were talking. And this coup de etat interfering with Republic of Cyprus…independence, etc. So Turkey has this guarantee, right to intervene, etc. In ’74, so I never forget this. My bird died. Killed by cat.
NC: So the bird was killed by the cat, but it was still a bad message.
FA: Cat, but at first I … yes, a message for me. It was pity that Thursday I cross to the Greek side, Mary Kwant agent. And they were saying don’t be afraid Fatma, but there was a very cold air outside, it was hot, something wrong. Kypros was helping me carry … I bought many cosmetics. I say, Kypros, if something is happening to me what should I do? He said I’ll save you. Don’t worry.
NC: Kypros was Greek Cypriot?
FA: Yes. And when I came on Friday Dekintas made another declare that this was internal problem of Greek Cypriots so, all people who came from the villages it was Thursday, they can go to their villages. So my friends went to Limidi … and the day after Turkey invaded.
NC: July 20th.
FA: Yes. 20th. Ah. So, of course there were some negotiations to start after it was a heavy fighting of course. We were in the…we had a basement in my mother’s house. And all the neighbors came, in the basement,  we had kitchen – so we had water, we had everything. We had food. So all the neighbors came and we stayed there, you know. Especially 3 nights it was big fighting.
NC: The neighbors were Cypriots?
FA: Yes, they came just because I have basement , it was safe. Some people went all together in a group to elementary school near our street but we didn’t go. My father never stayed at the basement. It was like a normal thing, he was in his pajamas and sleeping [laughs] you know second floor. And after 3 days, I said I have to go to pharmacy, I don’t know what happened to my car. Volkswagen that time, beetle. There is a saying in Turkish, property, it compliments the soul of a person. First your soul, then your property. And one car is okay, because after that …shootings,  I thought that you know, oh…everything was broken. And it was okay so I drive, I went to pharmacy, and I was expecting pharmacy all the windows are down. It was okay, but I couldn’t go back to sit home.  There was fighting. So people were coming and buying in 3, 4 days.  5 days everything finished, all the medicines in the pharmacy because we used to buy from the Greek side. So… our life changed of course. The pity thing is that my 2 brothers were in Limassol.  And they took them to a stadium all the men, children…
NC: Military camp, stadium right?
FA: No, it was a stadium, they collect them because they didn’t have military camp. Of course I was seeing the Greek Cypriots, they collect them because …not refugee, they collected them because Greek Cypriots were…and they were taking them to a camp near the pharmacy and I was seeing people cross in a big bus. Open bus. It was so…terrible thing.
NC: So they were bringing Greek Cypriots…
FA: Yes, when they collect in the wherever they were fighting, and the same thing they made in the Greek side. My brother, all the men they took to the stadium. And thank god they were … to the United Nations, so after a time they were released. So we really fear, had fear for the situation.
NC: You…you hadn’t heard from them since..
FA: Of course, we didn’t –
NC: Couldn’t telephone each other?
FA: Of course. And this took 3,4 months til they come to the north. And so, actually, Cyprus was broken, Cyprus was destroyed for me after all these things. People moved from this side to the other, that side to this place. Very bad stories, I’m a very humanistic person so maybe I didn’t have too much loss something, but the stories were very bitter. People left their houses, that means people left their culture. They came and stayed in a village they didn’t know before. They told them you will look after the Cypress trees, but they were making wine trees. Looking after wine trees for example in the Troodos area, Limassol area villages. So very very…til then, this culture was, Turkish side I guess was, we won the war, it seems we won the war. But we paid for it. Turkish Cypriots. Things were not go as we were expecting.  Greeks were…because we were minority, they didn’t  treat us equal. But now we are under the Turkish rule. They are interfering. They are sending their people here, we have too much settlers.  They are 3 more population than us. So, of course at the beginning we were so happy that we will not have a time, Greeks will not kill us, etc. Because our brain was-
NC: Brainwash
FA: Brainwashing. Of course, this happen. I understood that politicians, rulers, it depends to them. They give the order to fighting, If they want, they can stop. People are innocent. People live together. And now you see, there was a big…nefret [28:21] hate because of this war. Some people lost their brothers, people come together, they will never come together they will kill each other. And you see after you come, what happen? When people feel safe because of the Europe, they didn’t do anything. And they came and after many years they sold their houses, whatever it is. The end maybe is good. Of course there is no solution yet. But I see too much improvement after Cyprus entered to EU. And I always thank to Mr. Vasiliou because this was his idea. Of course in this situation I talk to myself that I must serve my country to rebuild unification again, so as an activist I work many years with Greek Cypriots.  And we make many good friends like family. And now we are visiting each other, we are meeting at Ledra Palace hotel or Pile, or outside of the country in America, everywhere. And now I am very happy that at least we don’t have any threat or any bicommunal crashes again. Because I remember the 1st anniversary of the unification of EU, becoming member of Cyprus Republic, [unclear] said [30:20], 2 things cannot happen from now on. Bicommunal crashes and any interference from outsiders. So of course it would be very nice if a solution could be found, but our position is better than before 2004, we didn’t have a recognized identity, now we have Cypriot passports , we are EU citizens and there is free movement. And the Greek Cypriots worry, the first war, was security problems. Because of the Turkey they said they had this trauma. And always a suspicion that Turkey could come again, interfere, take the other part of Cyprus. So with EU, this resolved. Of course if this things did not happen, maybe our life would be different, but I don’t know.  Of course it was affected us. [31:45] And we struggled too much just for peace living. Just for our efforts, and it took long time – like, our life [laughs] for our generation.  But I think most of the way we, most of the things has done, unified Cyprus Republic couldn’t establish yet. But I think we are better, we have problems, the more problems are now with the Turkish government in Turkey, their policy here, or the leadership who come, Turkish government and Turkish policies….they are interfering us. The economic issues and they are giving sometimes orders. And there is a rejection from the community, this kind of interference. And I think nowadays, Europe doesn’t say anything. Although all of Cyprus, north and south, is a part of European field…European…all of Cyprus. But they don’t interfere, saying why the settlers sending from Turkey, thousands and thousands. They don’t say anything but I expect one day they will interfere. Of course they have these policies towards Turkey. Turkey now seems a strong country, Europe doesn’t say anything. Because Cypriots here, Turkish Cypriots, they start taking issues to EU.  You know, that they want [unclear] to be implemented in North [34:40] because it is not implemented. And all this illegal, you know, something that international law doesn’t allow. And these property issues can be stopped by EU, these are my hope. But for the time being Europe doesn’t say anything. Most of the time Cyprus problem is for me, Turkey, Turkish Cypriot here. Greek Cypriot they are happy. Unfortunately they have some problems with this disaster and economic issues, we also have but we didn’t expect Greek Cypriots to also have economic problems. But I think things will be going in good, of course we are losing Cypriot-ness, culture, at the beginning – when war happens – I really feel sorry, people left their houses, left their schools, left their families. You know you go another place, and they take you from the roots. Always wars are like this.
NC: Are there people who understand that politicians are always –
FA: Yes, they understand.
NC: Are there people who hold politician’s livelihood without, without…
FA: Of course they manipulate people, Greeks are our enemies, nowadays people doesn’t think in that way. And there is a net, this institution like EU, that nobody talks about, that Greeks should be … there are small incidents, Greeks damage our cars, fanatic group there. When Turkish Cypriots travel to the south, but you know there was not a big issue, problem after the opening. Greek Cypriots are coming, Turkish Cypriots are going there, tourists can enter from any point, south or north. They can stay both sides. These are good things. And the other issue is Turkish Cypriots to solve the problem because Greeks can’t solve this problem. But if they can make an agreement, of course our problems can be solved. There is EU-Turkish relations, everything is intermingled.
NC: But now do you feel you don’t have much power, because the Turkish Cypriots and the settlers are more than you.
FA: Yes, this is identity issue. And the population is increasing. They say of course we need some workers like Greek side, there are too much foreigner workers. But here they make them citizen. They are coming they are coming and they are not registered people. They stay many years, suddenly they make something happen and they see them, and they see they are living here for 7 years. But they are not registered, this kind of things. Of course the problems – every day something. Shooting, bad things we never experienced in old times Cypriots. They are mostly very poor people and illiterate to work here. Just, they are not living in the good condition, they destroy everything, they are not clean.  I know that in Greek Cyprus there are many foreign workers, but they are under control. They can’t do any suicide or anything, criminal things. But here we hear about everything then. And every day it is bigger and bigger problem. So the problem is now, in our community, our unions, progressive associations, civil society, still struggling for this. They make demonstrations at the beginning of 2011 in North, you remember. So these are the problems.
NC: What is the biggest lesson you have learned from all these things? And that you want to tell others?
FA: Well politicians, rulers, whatever – administrators who have power, who are very nationalist – they rule their people and they never think to give a nice life to their people, but just fighting and Turkish-ness and Greek-ness, struggling, like Denketas, Makarios and others, the leaders set this type of damage to Cyprus. It would be nice, our culture is not fighting, Cypriots. Very humble people, we don’t like to humble or quarrel. So I believe politicians or rules can make war and the worst thing for me – if a war happens, then again it stops and everything stays there, maybe it is not bad as this situation. They change the culture, move people from their houses. Many years ago there was people saying I want to go back to my house, my husband also left his house, it’s in Potamia, Greek side, and we visited – I said Bekur, my husband, can we come and live here again? No, because there is no anchor, there is no school, there is no cultural social life there. So how will you go – it’s not only home, you left your home. You lose all the social thing. Like Greek Cypriots, they come to Kyrenia, their house, what will they do? Where will they take them? They need a church. They need, etc. etc. So they damaged all the established from thousands of years. You know, people’s culture and a new culture arise. I am not happy with this.
NC: Thank you very much.