ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE

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Name (Ονοματεπώνυμο): Pasha Faika Deniz / Πασσιά Φαΐκα Ντενίζ
Sex (Φύλο): Female (Γυναίκα)
Year of Birth (Έτος Γέννησης): After (Μετά το) 1974
Place of Birth (Τόπος Γέννησης): Nicosia (Λευκωσία)
Nationality (Ιθαγένεια): Cypriot (Κυπριακή)
Community (Κοινότητα): Turkish-Cypriot (Τουρκοκυπριακή)
Occupation (Επάγγελμα): Other (Άλλο)
Refugee (Πρόσφυγας): No (Όχι)
Language (Γλώσσα Καταγραφής): English (Αγγλική)
Related to Killed or Enclaved or Missing persons (Σχετίζεται με Σκοτωμένους ή Εγκλωβισμένους ή Αγνοούμενους): No (Όχι)
Serving the army in some capacity at the time (Υπηρετούσε στο στρατό με κάποια ιδιότητα κατά την περίοδο εκείνη): No (Όχι)
Lived in Refugee Camp (Έζησε σε Προσφυγικό Καταυλισμό): No (Όχι)

Interviewers:
R1-Nikoletta Christodoulou,
R2-Adira Zwelling,
R3-Lucy Avraamidou

Nikoletta Christodoulou: I’ll turn this on. The other thing I want to tell you, why we’re doing this project before I start, you already heard. We just want to collect stories of people, about…so I ask about 1974.  But, people can go back. Talking about 1960, 1963, 1965. Whatever for them is related to 1974, also talking about after 1974. So I want to know, how they experienced those events, what they know about it. People who weren’t born in 1974. And I wasn’t born either in 1974. Maybe they have heard, they know things because of their family, relatives. So when I do this, I’m going to do this interview with different ages of people. Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, people who came from Turkey. Maronites and Armenians, we also have, I want to try to find some.
Faika: If you want contact, let’s be in contact.  I do know a couple of people
R1: Yes, I do. So one of the things we’ll do later, well, we’ll be in touch anyway.
F: Yes
R1: So that’s what I want to know from you. I want to know…oh, before. Let me put out this form. You can write your last name and first name as well.
[Faika fills out form 1:23 – 4:00]
F: So, in 1974, I was a vitamin in an orange tree [laughs]. Life was pretty easy [laughs].
Research No. 2: You probably heard stories a lot, huh?
F: Huh?
R2: You probably heard stories though, right?
F: [Laughs]
R1: Alright, so. I want to know what you know about 1974.  Did you know any stories, or did you know anything from your parents. Where were your parents in 1974? Your family?
F: My father was living in Cyprus, with the family home. My mother is originally from Kyrenia, from Vasilia village there.  They were in a refugee camp in Nicosia. Not actually a camp with tents. There was a settlement in the Turkish Cypriot quarters of Nicosia that they built as really small brick houses for the refugees to come. Normally, they should have gone to Templos village in Kyrenia, where all the Kyrenian Turkish Cypriot population was accumulated. But because my grandmother was pregnant with my uncle, they were in Nicosia as well as in this other refugee camp. That’s where they were. And my granddad, my father’s family, they were all in the same house, because they were Nicosians, their house was always in the Turkish Cypriot quarters, they didn’t…of course they lived through everything.  But in their daily lives it wasn’t so much apparent, the ongoing conflict from ’63 to ’74. But from my mother’s side, grandpa was in St. Hilarion mountain, fighters, whatever. Most of them, the men, were fighters.
R: Your grandfather was..
F: Yes, my mother’s father.
R: He was, how old was he?
F:  Gosh [laughs]. Um…
R: Is he still alive?
F: Yeah. He’s still, he’s old though [laughs]. He must have been something like 30, in his 30’s, something. So he was in the mountain, St. Hilarion. Grandma was taking care of everybody economically otherwise, in Nicosia.
R: Nicosia, in the North? Or in they were in the..
F: In the Turkish Cypriot quarters. Because Nicosia was already divided then, in ’74. During the clashes, ’63, ’74. So they were in these newly built, just for the refugees, coming from other places, displaced from other places around the island. They were in this refugee settlement in Nicosia.
R: So your family was, was your mother [lots of background noise, cheering, static] which family members [7:23] were…you have siblings as well?
F: Yeah, yeah yeah. Well, my dad is the smallest of…eh, he has 3 other sisters. Eh, they were okay. [laughs] They were okay. And yeah, with, yeah…they were like they were before. Nothing much changed, although what happened was that my aunties had to stop work because one of them was working at Pik. Greek clashes…
R: At Pik?
F: Yeah.
R: Okay.
F: After the clashes, she was scared to go and come. So they were at home. Her husband, my aunties’ husband were also fighting. You know, the Turkish Cypriot mujaheeds. But my father’s father, he was old, so he was at home. And my mother, she had an older sister, herself, and a younger brother.
R: So your parents were not married?
F: No, no, they were kids.
R: Okay.
F: Well, not kids exactly. But they were quite small. They were not married.
R: Okay, so. Let’s start from that.  Either from that morning, or whatever you know, I don’t know what they told you about or you can remember.
F: Well, grandma always says. The meaning of ’74, both in my family and society, has changed over the years. When I was a little girl, it was the day that we were saved. As I became older, and as people became much more politicalized and they could talk, and they could see what’s really going on. Then it became the day of the invasion.  And like, last year, in the summer we’ve started doing an anti militarist concert and everything not on the first…the first day they came to Cyprus, on the 16th of August, you know. So the meaning, what ’74 meant, it actually changed during my, quite small lifetime.  Grandma always says before ’74, between ’63 and ’74, that Greek radio would always play kazanja?
R: Kazagiri? [9:48]
F: Kazagiris, yeah. And he has a song, “Bet Lemin, Algedin” which means “I waited and you didn’t come.” And they were playing it, she say they were playing it that Turkey didn’t come to save us.
R: So Greeks were playing that song…
F: Yeah.
R: Okay. Interesting.
F: And, she said, in ’74, they came, the Turkish came. But the Greek Cypriots didn’t like it, you see.
R: They didn’t like it.
F: Yeah, of course, I mean [laughs]. But, the most tragic events, or actually the tragic events we hear from our family, they’re not about ’74. They always about ’63. I mean, because, ’74 was the year, thinking about my mother’s family, they went home. Because before ’74, between ’63 and ’74, they were in these displaced settlements in Nicosia.
R: Between ’63 until ’74?
F: Yeah.
R: Okay. Because, why? In 1963, where were they?
F: They were in Vasilia, in Kyrenia, in their home village. I don’t know exactly which date. Some time during ’63, what I hear from my grandparents is that the Turkish in Vasilia, it’s the village where in Kyrenia the mountains meet the sea. And especially in the sea quarters, my mother’s family was the only Turkish Cypriot family. And in the mountain part, there were some Turkish Cypriots. Also, it’s next to Lapithos, where there were much more Turkish Cypriots. And during the beginning of the ’63 clashes, they said that they asked for a guarantee from the mayor or whatever of Lapithos, or the police forces, I can’t remember which organization exactly, but some governmental bodies. That they want a guarantee, that if the fascists would come, then they would be protected. And they were not given this guarantee, so they all moved away. But another thing about…
R: The fascists, the Greek Cypriots, which..
F: Yes. If EOKA-B would come, they would protect them. But no such guarantee was given.  So they had to move. The difference probably between what happened to Greek Cypriots is they didn’t move like that.  They prepared their stuff, they took whatever they could with them, it wasn’t like you have to go now. But slowly, slowly they left – in 1, 2, 3 days. But also with my grandparents property, what the Greeks, not the Greek Cypriot army but the Greek army went inside there. And they started to use it as a military base.
R: The house in Vasilia, your mother’s house.
F: Yes. They say though, during the army, when they went summers, especially after ’66, they would let them go in and have a swim and stuff. Vasilia was the base. [13:23] And in that huge land was my mother’s father and his brothers and sisters living. Only the great grandparents stayed. Only the father of my grandfather stayed and his mother. But the rest of the sisters and brothers, they left. [pause] Funny thing is that they returned home in ’74, but then it was a Turkish army in their house. So up to this time, they still cannot go into the home. [laughs] And Turkish army doesn’t even let us swim there. [laughs] That’s why, my grandma would always say, at least they let us swim. [laughs]
R: So you were swimming at…
F: Not me.
R: I mean the rest of your family was.
F: Yeah. It was still the base. But they would let them come in the plot and see it, to go.
R: So there wasn’t anything [unclear] at the house? [14:26]
F: No, it was next to the sea.
R: So it was, oh, okay.
F: Sorry, I just jump. So, ’74 it was the year they returned to the village. And they were not in this little crappy home. Grandpa being away in the mountains and grandma having to work all the time, trying to support all the family. So it was a relief. Like, it’s funny that still they couldn’t go home but when it’s being told, it’s being told as a relief.
R: It was a relief?
F: It was a relief for the family because they went to their village, you know.
R: They went back to Vasilia, but they were staying somewhere – not in Vasilia?
F: They were staying actually in a neighbor’s home. Because-
R: Where was the neighbor?
F: A few meters – 100 meters away.
R: Okay.
F: Neighbors who were Greek Cypriots who left, they were given the house of their Greek Cypriot neighbors.
R: Oh I see, okay.
F: What grandma tells about that day, when they entered the house, is that there were even bread and food on the table, in mode, you know. So these people, they should have left in a time of minutes, you know. Because apparently they were preparing to sit on the table, have a dinner, everything was placed there. The fridge was full, you know [16:02]. Everything, there was no sign that they prepared and they left, nothing.  All their clothes, all their shoes, all their photographs. They were there. And of course it was another trauma. For them to come back home, not having to live in new house, and to go and live in a house of a person that you don’t know what’s happened – you know that you knew them before.  And you don’t know now what has happened to them. But that issue is not discussed much. It only started being discussed after me or some other young members of the family wanted to dig into the issue. And I have to say, we didn’t do it until 2003. Until 2003, I also blamed myself that I never thought about what happened to the Greek Cypriots. I mean, I still slept in their bed when I went to visit grandma. We would always see their photos … [unclear], photos of the Greek Cypriots [17:11]…I…I cannot understand myself how I never thought what happened to them. Maybe, I don’t know, maybe I just assumed they find another place to live or whatever but I never questioned it.  And I think it’s very scary. That, looking back now.
Researcher 3: What happened in 2003 that changed that?
F: In 2003, that we had this social movement for the solution. And then people started to talk. People started to talk that were actually not saved, actually what’s been going on. And it was in that time that people actually started to wonder what happened to Greek Cypriots. Cause before that it was like, I don’t know, it wasn’t even a taboo because it needs to be a taboo, when you think about it. But then you don’t express yourself. But it wasn’t even a taboo that I personally haven’t thought about. I never thought about it. And…
R3: Was this social movement, did that happen before the opening of the…
F: Yes
R3: Borders or after?
F: Before. That’s actually how I think we came to the point of opening the borders. Because there was this big tension. There was economical crisis, the banks went bankrupt. And then there was this plan in front of us. And a leader that’s been there for years that’s been rejecting everything.  And, when it’s a social, political, economic situation, it was the bomb. And I think it was a very big awakening call in the Turkish Cypriot community. And I won’t say it turned out to be anything good. But at least we became much more aware, and we started to talk and we started to think and to discuss.
R: So it wasn’t that it wasn’t allowed to talk about it, people, it was kind of taboo and your people were never…
F: For older people, I guess it was not allowed to talk about it because my dad also belongs to a political party whose head quarters were gun shotted. I mean, because they would say, we don’t want Turkey, we want a solution. That was their policy. And they shot the headquarters of the window of the party. So I guess for the more politically aware, the more politically aware level, there was a pressure. But, talking, thinking about the mainstream, and also thinking about myself. I am from very politically aware parents who tried to teach me right. But apparently little has come inside it. I mean, I would still say, Greek Cypriots are our brothers, we’re all brothers and sisters in the world and everything. But I couldn’t even think about the owner of the bed I am sleeping on. [20:28] So I would just hear it from my parents but it wasn’t inside.
R3: When was the first time you met a Greek Cypriot?
F: Ah! It was in 2000. Or no – even before. Even before that, there was these UN days in Ledra Palace, that we could cross and meet people. There are, yeah. It should be 1999 the first time I went to such an event. And then in 2000, some political parties could arrange meetings on both sides and you can get in, with special permission. So, some people from the Larnaca branch of AKEL came to North through my father’s political party. And we met them. And then a couple of months later, we passed to south. I guess that was the first time I meet people.
R: Um, so were you in [unclear] with someone who participated in 1999? [ 21:33]
F: My parents.
R: So, if it weren’t for your parents, you wouldn’t thought of…
F: I don’t know.
R: Crossing, and…
F: Probably not, because now I keep thinking. When we started the social movement, it was a time when I would look from my window and I would see the lights of the Nicosia in the South, and I would, I was actually thinking I can see the lights but I can’t go. I think that had a big impact. And also before that, in 2001 I think, or ’02, we went for language school in Leon, and there were also Greek Cypriot students. And, I mean, we made very good friends. We were teasing, we were sleeping on the same bed, trying alcohol for the first time and all these silly things. And then we came back and we couldn’t …
R: Meet each other.
F: No. We were in the same country and we couldn’t meet. Also, during that time I was gonna…I was thinking. I think the big change that during that moments, I was studying for my GCs, all levels. I was in my desk, my window looks towards the South. And we have a big empty space. And I was actually being very – thinking about it and being sad about it. [pause] I think, yeah, during those times. [laughs]
R: What kind of image did you have, cause I can kind of also, I am thinking about myself now. What kind of image did you have before – even, crossing and coming to the North. How could you be, were you visualizing somehow? Or have a particular image of how it is?
F: When I was in primary school, you know the place, when you go from the roundabout inside Ledra Palace, the park, just over there. You can see the whole roundabout, the courts and things,
R: Okay. At Ledra Palace?
F: Yeah, the roundabout, where if you go like to Ledra Palace, you go…
R: Okay.
F: You go like this, to courts.
R: On the outside, right?
F: In the South.
R: There’s another-
R2: There’s that park up above on top of the walls and it’s in the North.
R: Actually I’ve never been-
F: Near Paphos Gate.
R: I’ve never passed through Ledra Palace. So I don’t, probably that’s why I don’t know where that is.
F: It’s when you go from Paphos Gate police station to Ledra Palace, in that road. So, when we were in primary school, we went there. And, there you can see the South. And, because you can see the park, and I remember actually seeing a girl walking her dog. And it looked like a very nice place. A very nice place to be. Because it was all green and everything, so. I had this idea that in the South it was always green and everything.
R: Okay [laughs]
F: And then, when I went to, you know, the highway to Larnaca is very dry. So when I passed again in 2000, and we went to Larnaca, I thought. Well, it’s very dry here. [laughs] What did I see before?
R: So your image was destructed right away.
F: But still, you go to the sea and everything, the difference between the buildings, the green areas, is obvious. So I never actually had an idea. I always thought it’s much better here. That was my idea.
R3: The grass is greener on the other side [laughs]
F: Yes, exactly. [laughs] Yeah, but. About Greek Cypriots, I remember, because I was in primary school talking with my friend. That I used to think – although, you see, in the family, they were telling me. You know, they look like us, we’re all Cypriots and everything, this idea.  I couldn’t imagine a child or a woman, Greek Cypriot. I thought they were – I had this image in my head about Greeks. And then, you know, in university, my friends were Greeks. [laughs] That they were men, this thin, tall man with moustaches like the wizards, you know. The magicians, not the wizards. And they all had green eyes and black hair and white skin. [everyone laughs]
R3: Everything sounds great except the moustache [laughs] Unfortunately, it’s not like that [laughs]
F: [laughs] Yeah.
R2: So that was the, so you knew Greeks, and you thought the Greek Cypriots were like-
F: No. I thought that Greeks and Greek Cypriots they look the same. In primary school, when I was smaller, that was my idea of a Greek Cypriot. And like, when my mother was saying but there are also kids, like your age, you can play. Cause during that time, there was also the concert of Burak, Sakis [26:56].
R: Yeah, yeah, there was.
F: And they met, they met people. Some of the people they met showed them photos of their kids. My parents showed their photos of their kids. And I was actually thinking, yeah, there should be kids, Greek Cypriots I mean [laughs]. Possibly there are! And, like, coming back to ’74 [pause], it was, from what I think, understand, it was a celebration for Turkish Cypriots.
R: For Turkish Cypriots
F: Yeah, it was a very – especially because the boss’ family of my parents – they were not displaced, they were not living in the Southern areas. They were in Nicosia and Kyrenia.
R: So your mother is from Vasilia? And your father, from?
F: Nicosia. Vasilia is in Kyrenia, and I switch [laughs] So from the family, that’s why I never heard about the lands that we left over there. Although we couldn’t go to my mother’s house, you can still see through the barrier and things. And, as I told you, it was an [unclear] occasion, not the happiest, but quite good. [28:38] And, for also hearing my mother’s experiences of between ’63 and ’74, saying that in that refugee camp kind of thing, every night they were meeting in one house, all the women and the kids. Cause all the men are in the mountains anyway.
R: They were where?
F: In the mountains. Or in somewhere else fighting.
R: So from 1963 until 1974, they were…
F: Nicosia, at the refugee place.
R: And the men were?
F: They were fighting somewhere.
R: Okay.
F: So, there were no men. Unless, I don’t know, they decided they were too old. And my mom was telling me that, at night, you would hear gunshots and everything from time to time. And also, every night, they would meet in one woman’s house, everybody. And now when she talks about it, how silly we were, if that one bomb was going to drop near to us, all the neighborhood was going to die. But I think it was their support mechanism. They would catch chickens and then cook something. Because also it was surrounded by…the Turkish Cypriot men are, mujaheeds, whatever, protect them. So, you know, they were cooking things, and, at night, sneaking out to bring those guys food and everything. So. From that life to go to another life where dad is home, they started their own restaurant again, and they were going to school and things. It was a big difference.
R: It was 1974, that.
F: Yes.
R3: Why do you think the Turkish army came to Cyprus?
F: Hah.
R3: What’s your opinion about it?
F: Okay. Well [pauses] The initial plan I cannot know. I mean, the initial reason. Someone told them to come and they came.
R3: Okay.
F: Also.
R3: Who is that someone?
F: Who is the someone? The someone is…as part of the UN stuff, they couldn’t get anybody else’s permission. We hear from history records that they started this very much before. They turned back. Junta was a very good excuse It was a very good chance to bring peace or whatever. Seeing the reactions after words, the way they came, how they came. The actions were of a state conquering another state. So, I don’t know. From the very beginning, they had this initial plan of extending the borders and everything. I don’t know - it also depends on the dynamics of the policies there. The Turkish Cypriot people in power at the time, which was nationalists, on both sides anyway. Much more in the North. In the Turkish Cypriot community – it wasn’t North/South then. They did play on the wheel, on the Turkish people living in Turkey a lot. The idea that our brothers and sisters in Cyprus are dying. You know, the propaganda to change the public opinion. People were bombarded with it. I mean, after what happened in ’63, it was. That they kicked out, they burnt the houses of the Greeks in Istanbul. So I think this, the way the Turkish Cypriot leadership influenced the way people think in Turkey, probably in cooperation with nationalistic Turkish people in power, anyway. And then, it also had a very big effect on the government. You know, when the Turkish army came to Cyprus, they were heroes. The Prime Minister of Turkey at the time, he was the hero. And the first time, after so many years, they had a victory. You know, beyond national borders defining laws and agreements. And they were the heroes and everything. So, it has a lot to do with politics as well. But now I can’t say that they came, initially, they will, you know, five, ten years, it’s with the aim of actually having, let’s say, a stronger guarantor ship, a stronger Turkish Cypriot presence in the government. I can’t say if they had this opinion. I can either say that they intended to stay forever, although I’m a bit more heavy on that position. But I don’t know whether they had a very long term mission when they came. Or they just came and said, let’s see what’s going to happen. [34:12] But it was definitely not with the idea of saving Turkish Cypriots, then why would you displace so many Cypriots? If you just come, take over the junta, tell everybody that you brought peace, go to elections. Maybe because you wanted history [mumble], a nationalist base. I don’t know [laughs]. Maybe it is a little bit mean. But they didn’t do that so I can’t say anything about that.
R: Do you like the situation now? Do you agree with how things are having gone?
F: Not at all. I mean, how can I? What do we have in the North – if I have to talk North specific, I mean, it was a very – now that I think about it, they did play very carefully. First you come to a place, then you give people land, then you get so many land because you kicked out so many people. You just distribute them freely, so you have this wealth. And then you open many government jobs, give – not the salaries, it’s very good salaries indeed for that time. Wealth. You tell the people, all of you, work in services, work for government. Open your doors for my products, you don’t need to produce, you don’t have the buying force anyway, so kill that culture, kill the industry. Make everybody self-dependent. And then, when people write letters now, have to actually important lemons in Cyprus. It’s a citrus country or whatever. Because nobody can order – even halloumi, you have to sell halloumi to Turkey. There are producers in Turkey, you have to bring them in Turkey and sell them back to Cyprus. I mean, this – this is crazy. So, you created this whole dependent persons. And now you put an image on them, as if they are some kind of parasites. And they need you, they can’t do anything without you. They did play very carefully, cause now, in the North, on many squares, you know, when you tell them, I want the Turkish army to go, I want the Turkish state to leave me alone. They are going to ask you – well, then how are you going to feed yourself?
R3: Is that how you feel?
F: No, that’s not how I feel. [laughs] I mean, that’s not how I feel in the sense-
R3: Dependent on Turkey or not?
R: Or maybe before 2003, there was real [unclear] but now it’s true?
F: Still we had, I don’t know if we had a bit more. No, I never felt dependent on Turkey. I think. Because before 2003, I didn’t think much about these things to be honest. And after, when I start to think about these things, the time I started getting more aware. So, I can say that I never felt that way. But, what’s going on now is that if we – well, it’s really hard to find words, you know. Because another problem is the right words – we live in a not normal situation. For example, everything comes to the issue – what some people call settlers, other people call migrants. Anyway, the population from Turkey they came after ’74, most of them are migrant workers, most of them are being exploited by ethnic Turkish Cypriots. Cause still, you have this enterprise of business people.  Now from after 2005, the big ones are from Turkey anyway. It’s changing as well. But especially those dates, the businesses were owned by the Turkish Cypriots who did pray on the cheap labor from Turkey. And then you have the businesses coming from Turkey, the control coming from Turkey. And then, you start to have stereotypes.  And I was going to say, we also have his issue of – whatever you want to call it, population that, actually the money the state has to spent on education, on health, on anything – okay, 2/3, 2/3 is of it is going to be consumed by Turkey. And if you actually give me less than 2/3 of my budget, then it means I can actually survive on my own. But then, if I talk like that, I would automatically say a kid born in the same year as me, is from North Turkish parents, that you’re not me – you’re the other.
R: So you’re going to discriminate?
F: Yeah. Just because, we were born in the same year. I didn’t do anything to become ethnic Cypriot – he didn’t do anything to be ethnic Turkish, or ethnic Kurdish, for that matter. [39:59] Then I can’t say that the money the government spends for you needs to come from Turkey, because actually you’re from Turkey and I don’t want you. It comes to that. And it’s really hard to come to the correct terminology. It’s really hard to tell you my solution is this because I don’t have a solution. The reason – and also, for the last few years, really, I started not to care about the Cyprus problem. Because in Cyprus, both in the North and in the South, apart from the Cyprus problem – I don’t like the situation. But, we have so much more problems. I mean, we have the trafficking in the North regulated by the state. We have this problem of migration and integration. I mean, we talk about lots of people and we talk about real human beings. We talk about gender issues, that we don’t even have one gender specific legislation to prevent domestic violence. But when I go with these things in the public, the first barrier that I’m faced with is that when we have [41:16] the Cyprus problem. We always have the Cyprus problem – nothing else really matters. If the Cyprus problem is going to be solved, everything will be better. Well, not. Especially if it’s going to be solved by those people who did cause the problem. I mean…and…actually, now I am sick of Cyprus problem because I think we, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, are such an arrogant population. Really. Because we think the whole world, including of course the Cyprus problem, revolves around us. And really, it revolves around the man heterosexual Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.  I mean, how many women are there in negotiations?  Or many women do actually have a say? Or, as I told you, about people whose parents did migrate after ’74. Right now I don’t know if I do have more of a right to say than them.
R: They have more right?
F: No, I don’t know. I can’t say right now that I have more right to say, that I have a say in this. Because, I was born in ’87. Another friend of mine was born in ’87. She was born of Turkish parents, I was born of Cypriot parents. I mean, we live in the same land and everything. How can I tell her, your existence in illegal and you have nothing to say in the future of this country.  And you know what, there will be a solution, and you will go to a place you have never seen in your life.  Her whole family was moved to Cyprus. So, that’s why I’m sick of the whole problem. Very sick of the whole problem [laughs].
R: Because it seems there is no solution to the way they…
F: Yes.
R: It’s more complicated, so you…
F: It’s very complicated. And actually we have much more important problems.
R: Do you think if we start looking at these other problems, that they may be a way to…
F: Definitely. I think if the people of the whole island, wherever they’re from, however they entered the island – if we try to work on together. Let’s say on gender issues, immigration, trafficking.  If we work on these issues together, then we get used to cooperating. And actually, these are the tools to build a common future. I mean, right now with this political climate, I’m not sure if we have tomorrow a solution. Whether it’s going to be better for us or open ways to further the problem. We cannot deny that both in the North and in the South xenophobia and racism is on the rise. Cause with the economical crisis on both sides, these ideologies are on the rise, the right wing is on the rise. And, I don’t know – even the smallest things, they can manipulate, I mean they did manipulate before. So, given this climate, if we try to find a solution the way we’ve been trying to find a solution, it won’t work. Of course, it’s not to say that there can’t be no solution, we can’t live together, no. It’s just that we have to solve these issues first.  Try to understand what it means to cohabit. Cause in the North we started to have these new ideas – you know, I’m Cypriot, I like Turkish Cypriots, I like Greek Cypriots. Everybody I want out.  Everybody else I want out. That’s not the way to go. I don’t know if there are such people in the South, I haven’t met any [laughs]. But-
R: In the South, believe this is as well, this is what you mean?
F: I don’t know if it’s happening the same. Cause generally, people who like Turkish Cypriots who I met in the South are people who wouldn’t hate migrants. Cause, Turkey being invaded and then this, you’re trying to express yourself to a Cypriot and it changes the dynamics of everything in the North. So, I don’t like the situation but I don’t think it’s going to change the way we’re going now.
R: Are there people your age, are there other people, yes, in your age, have the same think about these issues the way you do, or there are people who…you know, who, who, who don’t – not just they don’t dare to think about it. But probably they never had the chance, the opportunity to think about it. And they’re just…
F: Of course.
R: ignorance, or…um…
F: I mean-
R: Do you have friends?  That you, that don’t like
F: I don’t have friends-
R: That don’t like the way you think, maybe.
F: No, I don’t make friends with these people [laughs].
R: Okay [laughs]
R3: You don’t have friends in general [laughs]
F: We have the usual suspects that we hang around [laughs].
R3: You have similar beliefs.
F: More so my friends, we have similar beliefs. Okay, some people that I know from high school and whatever [47:01] – There are some people I know who would say, the only solution is the recognition of TRNC, and then we will see. But, you see, in the North things have been changing. Like. Before 2003, most of friends would think I am a weirdo when I want a solution to Cyprus problem. And I was seeing –
R3: You were in the North?
F:  Yeah, very, very much minority. I mean, because we had these horrible history books that would say Greek Cypriots are beasts, and, you know – they killed our babies, tortured our wives, things like that. Then, when I would say, no – we have to look at both sides. Let’s say, in 2000 – I would be the only one standing out. And then we had these meetings, and it became really hip and cool to believe in a solution. And like, 3, 4 guys, who didn’t go to the demonstration. Nobody talk to them. It was different case of bullying people [laughs].
R3: So why do you think it became cool?
F: Hmm. It was really cool to go to demonstrations, and you’re a rebel in high school. You know, everybody – the rise of the Republican party – the Turkish Republican party and everything. People changing sides, because it was the EU membership, and EU was the thing to be in. Mainly much more connected with economical reasons  And discretion of the EU, you know, we gotta have it and go inside there. And, okay, it goes with unification with Greek Cypriots, actually, they’re not so bad either. You know, the mentality. And after Republican party came in power, nothing changed, and there was no solution, and they end up not speaking much different than the ones before. People become depoliticalized, and their failure becomes connected with the failure of the idea of having a unified Cyprus and entering the EU, and then EU [unclear] started to be on the rise [49:24] and everything. Now, the majority of people – they stop caring as they did. I don’t know if they really cared, but at least they seem, if they cared. We lost that momentum a lot. And now, I see young people, younger than me, who do join the national unity party, the right party. When I was in high school, that was unthinkable. That was the social suicide to do. So, you see those moments getting [unclear] and getting much more popular [50:08]. Also, you know, we are Turkish Cypriots – that idea, we’re Turkish Cypriot, we don’t want Greeks, we don’t want Turkish settlers, we don’t want anybody. Which, it’s a form of new national identity, and it’s very dangerous in itself as well. So these things changed. From now on, I don’t know where we go, I don’t know what we do. I think we’re in deep shit [laughs] for your record.
R3: How do you envision the future?
F: I can’t.
R: Do you feel safe, here?
F: In the South?
R: Everywhere, in the South included.
F: In the South I always felt safe, just after the Larnaca Festival, for a week, I was creeping out a bit. Cause I was there. And it was a bit scary.
R: The one that, you know..
F: Not the one that…
R: Like a month ago, was that?     
F:  November
R: KISA [unclear], they had something in Larnaca? [51:16] There was this, uh, there was a fight between policemen I think and then people who were coming.
F: Well,
R2: There was like, uh…
F: Neo-Nazis.
R2: Yeah, the very nationalist party marching, and then they clashed with the festival.
F: And the police was very, like, bad.
R: They actually wanted to criticize them for being like, uh, that it’s, I guess, kind of…It’s a movement starting from AKEL but not actually saying so. So that it creates, that’s what I was reading.
F: Yeah. That’s bullshit.
R: I don’t know if you read-
F: AKEL they didn’t  even want to come with us to do a counter demonstration. And there I took my friend Sajun to play [51:58] who got stabbed. And I mean, that was very scary. Cause, our friends they do play guitar and very nice music. Because I volunteer with KISA, we were looking for Turkish Cypriot musicians, and I thought no one better than them.  And they couldn’t make it initially. And I insisted, I insisted. I said, cause in Nicosia, it was really nice. It was a very lovely environment. And, then, we made this crazy arrangement and I go and pick them up and we rush to Larnaca to make it to the concert. Of course, there was no concert, and in the end they went to took their stuff to the car. And, when he came here, it was big luck that he could escape actually, and the luck was in the lines [unclear] [52:46], and, it was happening really close. When I saw him and he sat on a chair, and the fascists behind us were screaming “Die! Die! Die!” That moment, was like, I took my friend to- I wish I got stabbed. I really wish I got stabbed. Because, they were these kind of persons, they start their concert, that they believe in the power of love. And although they do believe in peace and everything, they’re very passive, pacifists, not, I mean…I couldn’t see him hurting an ant.  Whenever we walk on the streets, he thinks he saw stones that they are shaped of hearts. We’re talking about this kind of person. And, for him to live through that, and you ask for an ambulance and it doesn’t come, and then…it was crazy. Some civil policemen took him in the car to the…to hospital.  And I remember, while going the way to hospital, I started remembering my grandmother’s stories. About ’63, when, they were taking Turkish Cypriots and taking them to hospital, but they were taking all their blood and everything.  It was crazy, but in a panicked moment, until I went to hospital and actually saw he was at the hospital being treated, I really was going to lose my mind. Anyway, after that, because we were in such a rush, I had the belongings of a friend that actually lives in Larnaca in my car. So after we were in hospital, we went back, Saturday night we went again. And on Sunday when we went to hospital to see him again, we pass from the city center. And, having a Turkish Cypriot car in the South is having a stamp on your forehead that you’re Turkish Cypriot, because, for obvious. And the guys who were there – there were some people that could see the plate. And it was me and my boyfriend.  Okay, you could not see we are Turkish Cypriot, but it’s a Turkish Cypriot car plate. And a friend from Bangladesh. And, it’s obvious she’s not Cypriot. And our car started to boil some water and we needed to stop there, in front of her house. And there was this guy that passed three times, saying, Cyprus is Greek. It was really hostile, you know, Sunday night, dark, nobody’s in the streets. And you have these people passing over and over again. For some time after those weeks, I did actually feel scared.  I did actually feel scared when I was in a car, in a Turkish Cypriot car, in the South. Not that I’m generally scared of people, but, you know, this specific persons. Also, they throw red paint on us, which didn’t leave from my hair until…even now, I still have on the tips. And it was like they branded us. My whole body was red. On Monday, I went to work red. They wouldn’t ome out with anything, those paint.
R: Who did that?
F: The fascists, in the festival they throw some red paint on us. So like, you know, even if you walk, or you’re in a car, you’re branded. Those weeks I was scared. It was the only time I was ever scared. Even in 2000 when I passed, I really wasn’t scared. I never remember being scared.  That was the only time. In the North, maybe I should be scared. Because we do, inside the party, with our other civil society friends, we do crazy enough things. They did arrest, you know, last year, a couple of our friends and things. But. I think the fascists and these Neo-Nazi movements in the North, are not in that position to actually start to wound someone. I mean, even like a year ago, they were not like [unclear] fighter [56:55]. So, you have that comfort and also in the North, you have that comfort, it’s home. Whether we like it or not, whether we say the whole of Cyprus is my home…until I was a certain age, I didn’t see here. I mean, to be realistic, when I …now I work here, but I get lost in the streets. It’s not logical that you get lost in the streets in a country, of a city that you were born in. So, in the North, you also have that thing. Although I’m much more active there, and we do confront the police and the authorities, the army, even, much more – it’s an eye of a place that’s under invasion. From the experience, I’m not scared there.
R: Okay. I see. Um..
R2: Did you participate in the march last week that, in the South?
F: Yeah, yeah.
R2: Yeah. What was that like?
F: It, ah [laughs] I talk a lot. [laughs]
R3: No, no – we’re saying that it’s getting too loud
F: Ah! I thought you had to leave.
R3: No, no, no. We said that it’s becoming really loud. [58:19] I was just worried about the sound.
F: Maybe I’ll put it more in my mouth.
R: Yes, if it’s…so we should be…although I like the conversation, but yes, now it’s good, again, but the music before was like…
F: Maybe they want to kick us out. It really reminded me of the demonstrations we had in 2003. [58:45] Although there was no spirit. Then, we demanded a solution, we demanded something. Now, we went there and there was nothing. You know, you say no to economical things that the Turkish state makes you do, but it’s very well, you don’t have the spirit.
R2: How many people about do you think were there?
F: I think at 30,000, at least.
R2: Do you think there will be more things? Like, was that the start of something? Or do you think that was just…
F: It’s really much, it very much looks like the start of 2003. It really does. But what happened in 2003, it coincided with the Annan Plan. Now if such a thing doesn’t come between Eroğlu and Christofias, I don’t know if it can turn into anything. But some things are building up. Very much. And, it’s to be seen. Because people now know it can’t stay like this, it can’t, this is not sustainable. The system, the economy, nothing is sustainable. And people realize that. But unless you put in front of them a cause, you know, a concrete solution, there wouldn’t be. They wouldn’t be coming over and over again. [pause] Finished.
R: So, I want to go back in 1974 again for a little bit. So tell me, again, your, uh…how old were your parents? Your mother was in Vasilia?
F: My mother was only 1 year old in ’63, and in ’74, so, she was like 10 years old.
R: Okay, okay.
F: And my grandfather, in ’74, he was 17.
R: Your grandfather?
F: My father.
R: Your father, okay.
F: My mother was, in ’74, 7, no – 10. And my dad was 17.
R: I see. And your father, your mother, had siblings, you said.
F: Mhm.
R: How many siblings?
F: She had a one year younger brother, and a one year older sister.
R: Okay. Um, and then your father, was 17, he also had siblings?
F: Yes, he had 3 older sisters. The youngest being ten years older than him, so they were 27 and 30’s.
R: I see, and. So, I’ll tell you about, so was it just your grandparents, or also your parents told you about 1974, or were they paying attention to 1963?
F: Most of the things are about 1963. To be honest, now that you ask me, the only thing that I know is that they both say the same thing about the morning of what happened in ’74, is that they heard from the radio that the Turkish troops is coming, they were very happy. This is the only fact I know.
R: What radio was that? Bayrak or Pik?
F: Probably Bayrak.
R: So it was a happy moment for them? So, they were living in the camp? At the camp? Your-
F: Mother
R: Your mother. Your father was?
F: In his house.
R: So they didn’t have to leave from the house between 1963-
F: No, no.
R: Okay, so. They were living at the camp. And they hear Bayrak…
F: And they’re happy. They’re happy that their father is coming home, that they’re being saved. Because, as I told you, from what they told me, they’ve been waiting for this moment for many years.  They were waiting for Turkey to come and save them because not – now, I guess, they were not put with any other option. I mean, it’s either Turkey comes and saves them or, there’s nothing else.
R: Did you meet the people who were at whose house your mother-
F: Yes.
R: That, so, ah, your grand-
F: My grandmother’s house.
R: They’re still in the house in Vasilia, the neighbor’s house.
F: Mhm.
R: So did you, was your family now, your parents now, they live elsewhere I guess?
F: Yes, we live in Nicosia now.
R: In the North.
F: Yeah.
R: And you live with them?
F: Yeah. Um, I live above them, but in the same building [laughs].
R: So, did you meet the people whose bed, you know, um…
F: Yeah.  Um [pauses]. We met the people. We, I mean, when the borders were first opening, they were coming much more often, they were going there much more often.
R: Whereas, I guess, before they wouldn’t come?
F: Yeah, but just during the beginning. Actually, where my grandmother used to live, the neighbor’s house, my uncle, she gave it to my uncle. Later on, to get married there. And I remember, they came, my uncle told them, this is your house. Whenever you want, come, stay there, you know.
R: So your uncle said to these other people?
F: Yes.  Of course, they can’t remember them because they were very little when they left the village.  But, I mean, because when the borders were opened, the whole village came. And I mean, still, until they stay there, some people, we go and visit them. Because, they say, with my grandfather, that his mother, or grandmother, is a Greek Cypriot. And that they are relatives and all this crazy things. And, once in awhile, you collect your family, you sit on a table, you eat and drink together.  We still do that, although the old inhabitants of the village, they would come every week, or at least once, twice in a month. But after the opening of the borders and the failure of the Annan Plan, because of the construction boom, when the borders were first open and they came, the village was like they left. Okay, people did repair the houses and everything. But the olive trees and fields were still there. Now they’re not. Now they build this crazy villas and whatever and sold them to foreigners, to British mainly. So I remember the last time, one of our co-villagers, Greek Cypriots came. I remember the old woman saying, look guys, I really love you, you know that, but I can’t come anymore.  And seeing them build these buildings on my land.  But, I mean, that was it. In the beginning, it was very friendly.
R: How did you feel when they were visiting, I mean, I guess it was your grandparents. Were they saying, oh, these people are annoying, they keep coming.
F: No, no, no. I mean, grandpa, they were their friends. And whenever they came, they didn’t let them go without sitting for a food. A coffee is never acceptable if you come all the way from Limassol, there. They were there in Limassol. So, no. Not at all. They were actually quite happy. And it was also very funny, cause grandpa would say Greeks, this and that, before, when I was young. But when he met his friends, they were not those Greeks he mentioned about. [laughs] They were just friends. So, that’s another irony.
R2: Did your old neighbors come back? The one that your grandparent’s moved into?
F: Yes.
R: Oh, I wanted to ask, but I kept forgetting about. So, you said someone was working at Pik? Your father, or…
F: My father’s older sister.
R: That was before 1963, before 1974?
F: I don’t know exactly when she did stop it. What I do remember is that she used to work there, and then there were the intercommonal clashes. And then she continued, and then it got worse. And then her husband told her to stop it.
R: What, how did you say it, the clashes?
F: The clashes happened, intercommunal clashes did happen. And then she continued. And after, what happened with the Bartley’s Bank [1:09:02]
R: Okay.
F: That’s when she actually did stop.
R: The Bartley’s Bank?
F: Between workers of the Bartley’s Bank, either a Greek Cypriot or a Turkish Cypriot, someone attacked workers of the-
R3: In Greece?
F: No, no. Cyprus. The Barley’s Bank. Yeah.
R: When was that?
F:  ’63, ’64, I’m not sure.
R: And, uh-
F: And before going there, I mean, before she used to go there, because she used to work at Pik, and, how beautiful she was, and she was wearing these new dresses. And her colleagues loved her. So, yes. It was actually her husband I think telling her to stop. Cause she says, he didn’t let me to go. [laughs]
R: So she could continue, but because of the-
F: Because of the clashes, they got, they got also scared. And also, the husband was in the army. And, you know, you get more scared. Or maybe you don’t want. But it was some, some major event. I do remember that distinctly. She could have tried to go, but they told her, well, you don’t know what’s going to happen to you.
R: So that was the older sister of your father?
F: Yeah.
R: And, so, how was life for you? You were growing up in the North. You mentioned some stuff before, like, about the dependency kind of thing. Like, they made you think that you are dependent…but I guess I want to ask for you, how was it like. A regular life, you felt like it was very remote, a very remote place, that there were no communication and connection with the rest, or it was like a regular life of a teenager, and…
F: Yeah. I mean, it was very much the same.
R: You didn’t feel any –
F: No, you had internet. Okay, when I was a kid, the only bad thing is you knew the country you were living in was not recognized. So you don’t get stuff like Burger King and McDonalds. Because they can’t open franchises, you know. These are the things when you are little, your main concerns unfortunately. And, actually that’s it. And, you know, there’s Turkey, that they saved you. It’s a good country. And then you hear conflicting opinions from your parents. But for the rest of the things. You don’t get Mango, you get Benetton and you wear it. And you still show off, you’re still the same, stupid teenager, I guess [laughs].
R: But not being able to fly all around the world from, you know, you had to fly to Turkey, and then –
F: To England, in England, actually it just stops there and goes again. And, I mean, you live in an island and yes, you would get a connecting flight through Turkey. But-
R3: What passports do you have? How many passports do you have?
F: [laughs] The other thing. We have the TRNC passport to go to Turkey, the TRNC one.
R: The Turkish Republic of North Cyprus
R3: But you can only fly to Turkey with that.
F: And England, and Germany, and France.
R3: England, Germany, and France.
R: They were direct? Direct flights?
F: Not direct flights, connecting flights, but you can-
R3: But you’re okay with that passport?
F: Yes. They don’t stamp the visa in it. Because, you know, before the EU you had the visa.  But they would put in a different paper. But, I mean, I, also, before the borders were open, when I went to France, I still used that. To go to – because I was traveling with my parents to go to India, we went to Egypt, you know, these countries. We would get this permanent passport, the Turkish passport for a couple of months, that looks a bit like the fake passport because their border filling and everything [laughs]. And then sometimes you get problems at the customs. [everyone laughs]. And you would get that. And yeah, that’s it. But, talking about passports, a very weird experience, now I remember.  Again, before the borders were open, we went to the U.S.  To Orlando, for Disney Land and stuff. And I remember in Disney Land, before you entered, they would ask you for statistical or whatever information, where are you from? And this is, and also everywhere – this is where I get stuck. You have an identity of Turkey.  But you don’t want to say there Turkey, because you’re not from Turkey. But you never fully think you can say Cyprus there,  because the Cyprus they know is not the Cyprus you live in. So, this is where you get stuck, and this is where you also get stuck when you go abroad, university, whatever. They ask you where you’re from. You say Cyprus. They say, oh yeah, I’ve been to Greece.  Well, or they tell you [unclear] more [1:14:42] something, and then you say I don’t speak Greek. And they go like…sometimes, people think the whole of Cyprus is Turkish. They think, more often, the whole of Cyprus is Greek. And then, they assume that there in Cyprus you speak Greek. And you say, well, I don’t speak Greek. And then they tell, oh, you came after ’74. No, I didn’t come after 1974. I mean, especially people in Greece. I had a lot of Greek flatmates. But when I first met them, in university…
R: In?
F: In 2004.
R: And where was this?
F: Essex University. UK.
R: Okay.
F: So, they, for example, had no idea that there were Turkish Cypriots before ’74 in Cyprus.
R: They didn’t know.
F: No. So, cause they were grown up with this education, Cyprus was Greek, the bloody Turks came, and they killed lots of their people. So. It would take. I mean, when I met a Greek, the first time I went to university, and also, I could speak a bit Greek because I was going to the language classes in university. You know, in the beginning, you go, like, you want to look cute, and you speak a little Greek. And I have an accent, but they go, okay, all the Cypriots they have a funny accent anyway. And then it would take, after this introduction, it would take quite a time, 20 minutes, to actually tell them who you are.  That was a bit problem. Another problem that…
R: So it’s like saying that I’m from Germany, and everybody understands and knows-
F: Yes.  I wish I was from a farm in south of France. [laughter] It would be very easy. Another problem. In university, for example, you have societies. Cultural societies.
R3: Where, in the university?
F: In Essex. You go to the Cypriot society – well, they don’t see you Cypriot there. They don’t let you be there.
R: Cypriot society, it’s only Greek Cypriots attending.  It has been created by…
F: Yes, can I? [laughs] And then, you don’t actually want to go to the Turkish society. But they don’t let you have a Turkish Cypriot society. So…
R: Who?
F: The university.
R: Oh.
F: Because it’s this phobia, there are many Greeks and Greek Cypriots going to that school.  And they’re going to recognize the whole state if you have a Turkish Cypriot society. So in the end we agreed to have, if our name was not Turkish Cypriot society, but Turkish Cypriot cultural society. Because we wanted to organize ourselves against the rise of airplane prices, or about the scholarships, you know. Things that are specific to the people who live in the Northern part of Cyprus, nothing else. But then, what are you going to have the logo of your society? If there is, for example, one of our friends is back there – she’s still in Essex. She’s going into a talent show. And, you know, from Cyprus, there is this girl called Stella. From UK, there is this guy called Bryan. And for her, just Ris. Her name. [everyone laughs] From nowhere. Because they don’t even recognize North Cyprus, that’s forbidden – they may-
R3: They use the TRNC passport to go to the country. But you use the TRC passport?
F: Yes, I can enroll with TRNC passport to the university. And they do recognize my diploma. I give them the administration of education in the North Cyprus. Because, apart from that, I couldn’t go and study there. So-
R: That’s right. You had to take the education from TRNC to accept you at the university.
F: Yeah. But then, they wouldn’t-
R: No. So, you know, you have these very weird things and when you are young, it’s the time you want to belong somewhere. And then you don’t belong anywhere. I mean that is probably the effect I couldn’t think about.
R3: We have similar issues too, except with the passport.
F: I mean, it’s the same with-
R3: Identity issues. I could never answer the question when they ask, are you Greek or are you Cypriot? I would say I’m Greek Cypriot. They would say, are you Greek or are you Cypriot?  I said, I’m Greek Cypriot, from Cyprus, but I speak Greek and I’m Christian Orthodox. This is what defines a Greek Cypriot. I mean, that’s the difference I could say between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. [laughs] Everything else is the same.  So, you don’t know. What are you? You’re Greek. I say, no I’m not Greek [laughs]. I’m Cypriot.
R: Whereas, I was just saying, I’m from Greece.
R3: Yeah, eventually, I would say that [laughs]
R: Eventually. Yes, it is weird.
R3: There was a time I-
R: It’s funny, because it’s only after we start thinking about these issues that you start thinking, yes, but who am I? Because when you say you’re a Greek Cypriot, or when you say that you’re from Cyprus, now there are people who just ask. Actually, there are many people. And they ask, oh, do you speak Turkish or Greek? So now, it’s like more and more people know abroad.
F: Yeah.
R: About the – or maybe they started meeting people from both communities of Cyprus, and so they know that the case of Cyprus. But what exactly?  But yes, it is an issue.
F: And another definition of Turkish Cypriot is like, the Cypriot society will organize a party and they will the Cypriot flag there, and sell their tickets, you know? You would have the Hellenic society, they would have their own party, the Greek flag, and sell their tickets. Then you would have the Turkish Cypriot society, trying to do something. Like, we did a common cook up with Cypriots and Greek Cypriots and Greeks and Mexicans and whatever. We were just friends and we wanted to do something with our societies. And you would have all the flags. Not that I like the flags, I hate the flags. But there, you feel like, you want something to hang there to show.
R: I’m here too.
F: Yeah. I’m here too, yeah. I mean, I did cook too. And, I can’t put my picture up there, and it’s just weird.
R3: What did you cook, do you remember?
F: We cook ayiopites [1:21:23].
R3: What’s that? Oh, ayipites, okay.
R: And because you couldn’t-
R3: That’s a way to identify yourself.
R: Yeah.
F: Hm?
R3: That’s a way to identify yourself.
R: And I guess because you’re – at that age, you’re not that interested in politics. You want to know who you are and show people that you exist, right? So I guess that was the issue for you.
F: Yeah.
R: You wouldn’t think, oh, because – this happened to my country, and blah blah blah. You don’t really care about all of that. You care, you know, I guess.
F: Yeah, or in Eurovision. Although, okay. Cyprus does suck in Eurovision most of the time. I don’t think, if the talent from the North was involved there, it would make any difference – it would suck too. [laughs] I mean, we’re not much talented I think. But still, you’re not there. You’re not in any international thing. Your teams, they don’t play [1:22:23]
R: Well, maybe it wouldn’t suck, because in that case, we would also have Turkey and Greece voting for us.
R3: Yeah, then we would be the winner of Eurovision.
R: It’d always , be, maybe the winner. [laughs]
R3: And then Germany, UK, France, would vote for [unclear] [laughs]
R: But I wanna…before you started something about irony that I didn’t…can you repeat that irony? When I asked you about, I’m sorry I just take you back now. But you said about, I asked you about the house in Vasilia where your grandparents lived, and you talked about any irony when the people visit the old owners.
R2: Your grandfather
F: Ah, yeah [laughs]
R: Could you repeat that irony, because I didn’t..
F: Yeah, okay. Before the borders were open or anything, you would have grandpa who both against the Greeks protect us and everything, you know, nasty comments. Greek Cypriots this, Greek Cypriots that, you know. And then the owners of the houses, his friends, relatives, I don’t, they don’t even know what they are with each other. They came, and then you see them sitting together, eating, drinking. And they’re not Greek Cypriots anymore. They are his friends.
R: They are friends of the…?
F: Of my grandpa. That, he grew up together.
R3: What would be the proper …or the images of the Greek Cypriots, describe them.
R: Okay. okay.
F: I mean, from what he said, he fought them in the mountains or whatever. For Turkish Cypriots and this. Against who? Against those persons that you’re hugging, that you’re kissing, that you’re eating together [laughs].
R: That’s right, yeah.
R3: That’s interesting. [1:24:24]
R: What do you do with all the things that you found at your…that your grandparents, that they found in the house. Did they sell them?
F: [laughs] It’s a very silly story. My grandmother saved everything. In a, in a room.  And then my stupid uncle, when he was repairing the house, they put them in a container, who was mistakenly taken to trash. [laughs]
R: Oh. I see.
F: So, some other things that my grandmother thought were very, too important to give to my responsible uncle to save, she took them with her and they were saved. But then it was…my silly uncle, please don’t publish his name, he’s going to hate me [laughs].
R: Okay. Well, what I was going to ask-
F: And he’s not like anything nationalist or whatever, he’s just a careless person.
R: No, I [unclear]. So what else? [1:25:19] Is there anything else you want to tell me about 1974 or before that, 196- something else? Something else that you heard, and it’s important to –
F: I’m still becoming shocked of the stories of the Greek Cypriots I hear of 1974. I think we’re very cruel people as Cypriots. In ‘7-, in ’63, when I hear from a Greek Cypriot, the life was okay, everyone continued their own life while….it was quite bad for Turkish Cypriots, I mean, at least for my grandmother’s family. But then, I mean, in ’74 – those Greek Cypriots, the Greek Cypriot society in general, what do you think happened to those people? Are they living like this? They left their house in the villages, they left their towns, and they moved somewhere. These people are not in their homes anymore. In the village, those homes are empty. Nobody thought about it. Nobody thought, these are our friends, our neighbors. And the same thing happened in ’74. The army came, and Turkish Cypriots did very well know, I think, the old generation, what has happened to this people. But they choose not to think about it. So you go back there, and your eyes are so much blinded.  That I stories of people, you know, trying to choose the best house in the village and everything, and you don’t think about what happened to the people who lived in this house. And then you become blinded by that. So. Different points in time, we were both blinded by what happened to each other. Now I hear stories from Greek Cypriots. Like, I heard a story where a woman in Limassol was beaten up in the street cause she helped some Turkish Cypriots. Or, people wouldn’t give jobs to refugees and things. And, displaced people, they were not supported by the rest of the community. So, I mean, you have a trauma there but you chose not to think about it. So, you become immune and insensitive to each other’s pain at different points in time. And, I think this is very bad. I mean, in all these bicommunal things and workshops that we go in, they always talk about understanding each other’s pain, sharing each other, and we’re both victimized. Well, I think before the Cypriot community accepts that we were both victimized at different points in time - that both were also very cruel. I mean, that. I cannot find any other word. That we are also very bad to each other in different points in time. Then we cannot reach anywhere. We are not both good – actually, I think both communities are bad. And another point is that, it’s very tricky, Greek Cypriot, Turkish Cypriot, and I don’t like it, and I do it too. Nobody ask, how does Armenians feel. Nobody ask, how does Maronites feel. I remember from another story that in ’63, in my father’s neighborhood, where the Armenians living, didn’t live to the Greek Cypriot Christian quarter of the city, that they went to burn their house. Some other nationalist Turkish Cypriots. And okay, that street, the Turkish Cypriots of that street, stand against them. But after, those people sold the house, got scared, and left. We don’t do that either. We don’t see Maronites, what happened to them, we don’t see Armenians, what happened to them. Especially Maronites. There’s still, you know, people living on [unclear], and [1:29:25]
R: Do you know Maronites? Do you know of any people [unclear]…
F: On a personal level – yeah, Vasilia is closer than [unclear] [1:29:37] And the priest there, there was a priest who died like-
R: Catholic priest.
F: Yes, 3, 4 years ago. I don’t know his name cause I was calling him the grandpa priest. Papas they say, in Turkish. And he used to bring me morning coffee from the South, when the borders were open, when I was young. That was the first thing I bought when I crossed the borders.
R3: [laughs] You don’t have morning coffee?
F: No, we have Petit Bear, which is the same thing [1:30:07], but it’s not morning coffee.
R: No, it’s not the same, actually.
R3: If we knew, we would have brought a big box.
F: No, I always have in my house [laughs]. So-
R: So you have them now, okay.
F: Yeah. [everyone laughs and mutters about coffee]
R: No, actually they’re the best, and the taste is not the same as Petit Bear
F: Yeah
R2: [unclear] that actually changed my life one day when I was first here, a whole separate story, but yeah [laughs]
R3: Really? [laughs] It’s so simple though. They’re almost boring.
F: No. I used to carry them to England with me when I went to university, all the way…
R: I love morning coffee, I used to put it in my-
R3: My –Cypriaka, made in Cyprus, morning coffee?
F: Yeah, Frou frou. [1:30:48]
R3: Wow, I didn’t know that.
R: We should bring you one.
R2: I know what they are.
R: Okay.
R2: Yeah.
F: So, I knew of him. But on a young person’s level, I don’t know anybody.
R: Okay. Cool. And what is the – what is your biggest lesson? Something you changed, something you – if there is something.
F: [pause] From the Cyprus problem?
R: Yes, and from what you know about those events.
F: [pause] What I learned is that people can get very easily manipulated, people can be very good, but at the same time, insensitive and bad and cruel. I mean, there are no borders choosing what is right and wrong. And I learned how people can be blinded by fear and nationalism. And at times like this, personally I feel very scared for not only Cyprus, for the future of Europe. That the nationalism on the right, the economical crisis and everything, and now we have the migrants like we used to have the Jews. I think what has happened from firsthand experience, cause second world war was long ago in Europe. But firsthand experience in Cyprus should be a very, it’s a tool to see how human mind can work. And how dangerous things can become by people who are not so much clever in themselves much. And I think that’s the thing I learned.
R2: Can I ask one more question?
R: Yes.
R2: Yeah, so. When you were talking about identity, it sounds like a lot of the world is confused, you know, about how to identify you. Do you feel confused about your identity, or do you know, like, do you know how you would describe yourself or where you’re from?
F: No, I don’t describe myself. I don’t know how to describe myself. But I stopped being sorry about it. I think I’m just a human, and if they ask me, I’m from Cyprus. If they ask me which side, I say daytime I’m in the South, nighttime I’m in the North, you choose. It’s as simple as that. [laughs]
R: Alright.
Ends, [1:33:37]